Philosophical/Industrious?

[Blaarg]

Think they'll add it?

 

[Bastian-Bux]

Play VISA and enjoy ^^

 

[Blaarg]

What's Visa?

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Think it's a mod.
It is overpowered though.

 

[Mercenary82]

I'd rather see Aggressive/Charismatic first, on either Alexander or Napoleon. What leader would make a good Philisophical/Industrious though?

 

[Capt Buttkick]

What leader would make a good Philisophical/Industrious though?

Ah, good question. I have a few proposals:
Constantine I (could be spiritual too, but developed a very important CoL that had a view on human rights issues (for the philo bit) and rebuilt Byzanths into "New Rome".
Mansa Musa (I've always thought PHI was better than SPI for him + he overlooked the main expansion of the university of Sankoré (although financial fits Mansa very good)).
Gandhi (Obvious choice, really. He's already had both traits in vanilla/warlords and is another ruler who isn't particularly well described by the SPI trait imhso).
Pericles of Greece (Another obvious choice, kinda strange he isn't in the game in the first place).

 

[LucyDuke]

It's one of the so-called forbidden combinations. Way too overpowered, at least as the traits stand. Unless the traits are tweaked, I don't think we'll ever see it "officially", though anything - including Agg/Cha - is available as a mod.

 

[Blaarg]

what other combos are 'forbidden?

 

[Xanikk999]

Its really not overpowered, niche roles are very rarely overpowering and this one isnt either.

 

[Xanikk999]

what other combos are 'forbidden?

Aggressive/Charasmatic, however i dont think that would be overpowered, its extremely a niche role. And it doesnt make you that better at war, enough that it would be game breaking.

Your still going to have a tough time with research if you play on a high difficulty level for example.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Its really not overpowered, niche roles are very rarely overpowering and this one isnt either.

Ind/Phi isn't very niche. With cheap wonders, you should be swimming in any kind of GP you want. GL+Ind/Phi=GSs reproducing like rabbits. You can settle 'em, you can build academies, and you can lightbulb your merry way down the tech tree. By all rights, you'd have GPs coming out of your ears, first furnished primarily from wonders, then by specialists. It's not as builder-centric as one might believe too...Industrious makes it easier to acquire wonders, so warmongers can get the GL and other choice selections and only be losing half the hammers, allowing them to put the other to work building units. Half-price forges are an excellent and overlooked bonus. Philo makes the SE more powerful....and the SE loves the Pyramaids. Warmongers tend to favor the flexible and swift SE over the slow, lumbering CE that takes precious time to come into its own. When your games are ending in the Industrial era, the later dominance of the CE pales in comparison to the strength of the SE early on. So warmongers get a "perfect" SE civ, and builders can achieve culture wins with unparalelled ease.

Build the Parthenon(half hammers AND the AI often ignores it for a good while), and you'll be getting plenty of GAs all game.

In short, it's power lies in flexibility. It has something for everyone and can be applied to many purposes well...

 

[Xanikk999]

Ind/Phi isn't very niche. With cheap wonders, you should be swimming in any kind of GP you want. GL+Ind/Phi=GSs reproducing like rabbits. You can settle 'em, you can build academies

Even with philisophical/industrious, you arent going to get a ton more great leaders, and to make the best of it on high difficulty levels, you are probably going to have to jam those wonders in one city to build it before the AI. That means you cant product what great leaders you want. And if its not a high difficulty level, you wouldnt even need industrious to beat the AI to the wonder so its a moot point.

and you can lightbulb your merry way down the tech tree

Not true at all, only true for the early game and not even that true then. Because you probably wont be swimming in great leaders in the early game even with this combo. And by the rennescaince it takes 2-3 great leaders to research one tech, which is pretty wasteful use for a great leader.

By all rights, you'd have GPs coming out of your ears, first furnished primarily from wonders, then by specialists. It's not as builder-centric as one might believe too...Industrious makes it easier to acquire wonders, so warmongers can get the GL and other choice selections and only be losing half the hammers, allowing them to put the other to work building units. Half-price forges are an excellent and overlooked bonus. Philo makes the SE more powerful....and the SE loves the Pyramaids

Not overpowered at all.

Warmongers tend to favor the flexible and swift SE over the slow, lumbering CE that takes precious time to come into its own. When your games are ending in the Industrial era, the later dominance of the CE pales in comparison to the strength of the SE early on. So warmongers get a "perfect" SE civ, and builders can achieve culture wins with unparalelled ease.

Its good for builders but thats it. As a warmonger your better off with other traits. And if you neglect your military with this combo the AI will let it be known.

Build the Parthenon(half hammers AND the AI often ignores it for a good while), and you'll be getting plenty of GAs all game.

In practice, it really isnt all that many. Especially considering it obseletes early.

In short, it's power lies in flexibility. It has something for everyone and can be applied to many purposes well.

Builder only. Other roles are still better suited with other traits.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Build the Parthenon(half hammers AND the AI often ignores it for a good while), and you'll be getting plenty of GAs all game.

While I agree with a fair bit of your reasoning: it's +50% hammers, not +100%

 

[LucyDuke]

Even with philisophical/industrious, you arent going to get a ton more great leaders...

Someone ought to mod this combo and play a few rounds with it. It seems to me to be a serious boost to GPP, and overpowered if leveraged properly. There's no way to take advantage of, say, spi/imp the way there is with phi/ind. This one, if played right, would blow other minor advantages out of the water. It's the synergy that makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

The thing is, without actually trying it, we're just throwing fluffy arguments at each other. So while my money is on "overpowered", I don't think it's really reasonable to be sure one way or the other without some hard proof.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Make Israel a civ and make Solomon Phil/Industrious. Fits like a glove.

 

[potatokiosk]

The trait combo, if used properly, could start a deluge of great people in the classical era using great wonders that would continue through the middle ages and into the renaissance through more and more specialists. The cost of a great person would eventually be too high and the combo's power would wear out, but by then a player could run away with the game.

I suppose one could try to mitigate the power of the combination by givng the civ a terrible unique unit and a terrible unique building.

 

[gettingfat]

The issue is not how many GP you'll get in the whole game, it's how many you'll get in the early game.

For example, if I play an ind/phi leader I'll quickly research BW and masonry, immediately chop the Great Wall. With Philosophical trait the GE will pop out very quick and I'll use it to rush the Great Pyramid. Switch to representative and run the SE. Then get the Oracle and use it for metal casting. Build the forge at the Great Wall/ Great Pyramid city and run an engineer specialist. With 12 GP points per turn another GE will pop up very soon. I can either use it to lightbulb Machinery and go military or rush the Panthenon or GL to farm more GP.

So with this combo I don't really need to build a lot of wonders, but once I get the head start a crazy chain reaction will be initiated. If I get access to stone and/or marble it's even more ridiculous. And the above example is only one of the several of this type of chain reactions. If I want religious I can go the Stonehedge/Oracle path, slingshot COL and then build the holy shrine quickly. Switch to Caste system and GP my opponents to death.

 

[futurehermit]

Man industrious philosophical...what a dream...I'd build the pyramids and GL every game...and maybe finally win an emperor domination game

 

[LucyDuke]

I suppose one could try to mitigate the power of the combination by givng the civ a terrible unique unit and a terrible unique building.

Try being the operative word. We didn't even have unique buildings in vanilla, so we can obviously get by without, and I've played many many games without touching the unique units. They're hardly essential.

Of course, if the unique building/unit was an intentionally underpowered version of the normal one, well, that's a different story... though I can't think of anything appropriate that would be crippling enough.

 

[Blaarg]

Of course, if the unique building/unit was an intentionally underpowered version of the normal one, well, that's a different story... though I can't think of anything appropriate that would be crippling enough.

A worker with 1 movement would be pretty bad...haha...slow worker.