Pick a Pope, Any Pope

TyrannusRex

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While I myself am not entirely sure that having the Papal States as its own civilization could work well (at least in VI, I'm not sure about any previous or future games), and it would probably come with its own controversies, I'm curious: for those in favor of the idea, what Pope would you pick to represent, essentially, all of Catholicism? Or at least, the entire Papacy. Why? How might they lend themselves to gameplay?
 
Commenting on the article is probably unnecessary - but nevertheless. The classical image of the papacy is clearly linked to the period of its highest power, when the Catholic Church formed an alternative government. Not only independent of the secular authorities, but also trying to dominate the bunch. So this dude, in fact, can be considered the ancestor of this situation in an explicit form.

As for the gameplay - the nuance is that it would simply be a missed opportunity to formalize the Papal Rome as a standard civilization. The "papists" obviously have to have specific mechanics and specific criteria for victory.
 
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When they released the trailer for Gathering Storm, there was one religious looking guy with a beard, that I thought might have been a Pope
And I was super-hyped that they were going to bring in some sort of Religious version of Civ5 Venetia,
Alas, it was not meant to be...

EDIT: Can you imagine that they announced the World Congress and then it was horsehockye :(
 
While I myself am not entirely sure that having the Papal States as its own civilization could work well (at least in VI, I'm not sure about any previous or future games), and it would probably come with its own controversies, I'm curious: for those in favor of the idea, what Pope would you pick to represent, essentially, all of Catholicism? Or at least, the entire Papacy. Why? How might they lend themselves to gameplay?
make a special game mechanic to allow for religions that support a concept like 'the pope'
 
When they released the trailer for Gathering Storm, there was one religious looking guy with a beard, that I thought might have been a Pope
And I was super-hyped that they were going to bring in some sort of Religious version of Civ5 Venetia,
Alas, it was not meant to be...

EDIT: Can you imagine that they announced the World Congress and then it was horsehockye :(
You mean you thought the Eastern Orthodox priest was a Pope? :lol:

If anything, I think more people were disappointed in the fact that the church in that scene was destroyed by an earthquake, and yet we got no earthquakes.
 
You mean you thought the Eastern Orthodox priest was a Pope? :lol:

If anything, I think more people were disappointed in the fact that the church in that scene was destroyed by an earthquake, and yet we got no earthquakes.
I KNOW, right?? Earthquakes are a perfect example of a natural disaster that frequently shaped history.
And, much like volcanoes, they aren't (to my knowledge) tied to climate change, so at least the volcanoes wouldn't be alone.
Earthquake mods, anyone?
 
Honestly, since the volcano just before is blatantly meant to be Vesuvius, I had the Earthquake scene figured as the most famous earthquake in Europe in the Medieval-Renaissance-Early Modern era - the Great Lisbon Earthquake of 1755. The clothing are not a perfect fit, but they're in the right direction (see the mitre of the patriarch of lisbon depicted here, for ex : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Lisbon ), and definitely in line with what a high-ranking Catholic priest might be wearing at the time (and comparatively, the use of the mitre is actually more limited in eastern orthodox rite).
 
You mean you thought the Eastern Orthodox priest was a Pope? :lol:

If anything, I think more people were disappointed in the fact that the church in that scene was destroyed by an earthquake, and yet we got no earthquakes.

Right wellllll fancy pants, I wasn't looking very hard 😭
Earthquakes would've been cool, maybe hard to show though
 
And, much like volcanoes, they aren't (to my knowledge) tied to climate change, so at least the volcanoes wouldn't be alone.
Volcanoes actively affect the climate.
1. The last significant event is the year without summer, 1816
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer
2. Volcanoes at least added trash during the Little Ice Age (late Middle Ages, Renaissance and Modern Times until, by and large, the middle of the 19th century)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
3. The most "obvious" is the anomaly of 535-540. The volcanic and asteroid hypothesis competed there, but the "volcanists" are now winning.
4... At least the explosion of Santorini in the 17th century BC.

And if you dig deeper, super-eruptions like Phlegrean fields and Toba begin to pop up and , with a temperature drop of 5-10 degrees in the first case.

At the same time, 535-540 looked something like this.
Procopius: "And this year the greatest miracle happened: the whole year the sun emitted light like the moon, without rays, as if it was losing its power, ceasing to shine cleanly and brightly as before. From the time it began, neither war, nor pestilence,nor any other calamity that brings death, has stopped among people. It was then the tenth year of Justinian's reign."
Procopius' information is confirmed by another resident of the Mediterranean, John of Ephesus, who wrote: "And there appeared a sign in the sun, the like of which no one had ever seen or described before. The sun darkened and remained dark for 18 months. It shone for only four hours every day, and that light was nothing more than a faint shadow. Everyone said that the sun would never regain its former radiance."
The pseudo-Zachary of Mytilene writes about March 24, 535, as the day when the sun for the first time "dimmed during the day and the moon at night... while the ocean was seething and agitated."
Cassiodorus in "Variae" mentions low temperatures throughout the year, poor harvest and extremely reduced visibility: "The air has thickened. from the snow and cold, and the weak rays of the sun could not disperse it. It only became denser, blocking the path of the sun's warmth and deceiving the mortal human eye."

In general, there is a theory, that all this at least actualized the myth of Ragnarok and influenced its content.
 
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Honestly, since the volcano just before is blatantly meant to be Vesuvius, I had the Earthquake scene figured as the most famous earthquake in Europe in the Medieval-Renaissance-Early Modern era - the Great Lisbon Earthquake of 1755. The clothing are not a perfect fit, but they're in the right direction (see the mitre of the patriarch of lisbon depicted here, for ex : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Lisbon ), and definitely in line with what a high-ranking Catholic priest might be wearing at the time (and comparatively, the use of the mitre is actually more limited in eastern orthodox rite).
Actually, the scene begins in a typical cross-domed Byzantine temple with Eastern Christian frescoes on the walls. At the same time, the priest runs out into the city, which is very similar to the Byzantine one.
In other words, there is a 101% probability of one of the Constantinople earthquakes. At the same time, the most significant is the 557th year, with damage to the dome... however, the Cathedral of St. Sophia. "Sophia" is "a little bit" more, but "the artist sees it that way" (c)
At the same time, the priest's vestments were clearly made according to the same principle. Naturally, he is not wearing a tiara, but a Catholic mitre, and a late one. But an audience unfamiliar with Orthodox nuances may simply not recognize an unusual priest as such.
APD: (after looking at Google) Okay, not 101%, 99%. There was also an extremely large-scale earthquake in Antioch, which catastrophically destroyed the city in 526. But that building is absolutely not like the "Great Octagonal Church" of Constantine.
 
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Volcanoes actively affect the climate.
1. The last significant event is the year without summer, 1816
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Without_a_Summer
2. Volcanoes at least added trash during the Little Ice Age (late Middle Ages, Renaissance and Modern Times until, by and large, the middle of the 19th century)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age
3. The most "obvious" is the anomaly of 535-540. The volcanic and asteroid hypothesis competed there, but the "volcanists" are now winning.
4... At least the explosion of Santorini in the 17th century BC.

And if you dig deeper, super-eruptions like Phlegrean fields and Toba begin to pop up and , with a temperature drop of 5-10 degrees in the first case.

At the same time, 535-540 looked something like this.
Procopius: "And this year the greatest miracle happened: the whole year the sun emitted light like the moon, without rays, as if it was losing its power, ceasing to shine cleanly and brightly as before. From the time it began, neither war, nor pestilence,nor any other calamity that brings death, has stopped among people. It was then the tenth year of Justinian's reign."
Procopius' information is confirmed by another resident of the Mediterranean, John of Ephesus, who wrote: "And there appeared a sign in the sun, the like of which no one had ever seen or described before. The sun darkened and remained dark for 18 months. It shone for only four hours every day, and that light was nothing more than a faint shadow. Everyone said that the sun would never regain its former radiance."
The pseudo-Zachary of Mytilene writes about March 24, 535, as the day when the sun for the first time "dimmed during the day and the moon at night... while the ocean was seething and agitated."
Cassiodorus in "Variae" mentions low temperatures throughout the year, poor harvest and extremely reduced visibility: "The air has thickened. from the snow and cold, and the weak rays of the sun could not disperse it. It only became denser, blocking the path of the sun's warmth and deceiving the mortal human eye."

In general, there is a theory, that all this at least actualized the myth of Ragnarok and influenced its content.
Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant that the eruptions of volcanoes aren't triggered by climate change, like they seem to be in Civ.
 
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Right wellllll fancy pants, I wasn't looking very hard 😭
Earthquakes would've been cool, maybe hard to show though
Age of Myhology did earthquakes rendered quite well.
 
make a special game mechanic to allow for religions that support a concept like 'the pope'
The Pope was considered to have primacy in Christianity early on, but schisms, heresies, and reformations splintered his authority and created multiple denominations who did not recognize his leadership. Similar happened to the Medieval Caliph in Islam.
 
Sorry, I c

Sorry, I should have clarified. I meant that the eruptions of volcanoes aren't triggered by climate change, like they seem to be in Civ.
I'm sorry too, I didn't realize. Well, then another bout of near-scientific boredom. Warming still affects volcanism. The mechanism is like this.
1. The viscosity of magma depends on pressure.
2. As a result, when the pressure decreases, it begins to pour out more actively.
3. In this case, the pressure depends on the load on this part of the earth's crust.
4. A melted glacier reduces the load by itself + meltwater causes the most active erosion, which can work even harder.
5. Pressure and viscosity are falling, and...
In addition, when the load on the crust decreases, an isostatic rebound occurs - simply put, the earth's crust rises. If there is a lot of ice, it is very significant. In the process of uplift, tectonic processes are activated, and...
 
The Pope was considered to have primacy in Christianity early on, but schisms, heresies, and reformations splintered his authority and created multiple denominations who did not recognize his leadership. Similar happened to the Medieval Caliph in Islam.
However, the period of the highest power of the papacy lasted about 200 years. The Dutch great power existed for about the same time, and the Potugalian one even less.
 
However, the period of the highest power of the papacy lasted about 200 years. The Dutch great power existed for about the same time, and the Potugalian one even less.
But, ironically, that period of greatest power (which the Great Schism from Eastern Orthodoxy and the Chaldedonian Divide from Oriental Orthodoxy were before) were already setting up for the Reformation through rampant abuses of that power. In a broad historical sense, can the Pope truly be called THE leader of Christiandom? And comparing the height of the Papacy to that of secular nations seems odd.
 
But, ironically, that period of greatest power (which the Great Schism from Eastern Orthodoxy and the Chaldedonian Divide from Oriental Orthodoxy were before) were already setting up for the Reformation through rampant abuses of that power. In a broad historical sense, can the Pope truly be called THE leader of Christiandom? And comparing the height of the Papacy to that of secular nations seems odd.
250 years have passed from the end of the "imperial" papacy to the Reformation. Between which there was "just something"
1. the internal crisis of the papal state, directly related to the next strengthening of the local nobility, and indirectly - with the beginning of the general crisis of the European economy (because the first symptoms of the little ice age appeared just then)
2. the relocation of the popes to Avignon under the wing of the French king with all the ensuing consequences
3. "The Great Western Schism." The popes moved back to Rome and the idea of an independent papacy from the French seemed unbearable to the French. As a result, half of Western Europe ended up under the control of alternative popes in the good old Avignon.
4. And only then, after a modest 150 years, the era of the Renaissance Papacy began, the Terrible Abuses (tm) of which gave rise to the Reformation. At the same time, the power of the popes of that time was a pale shadow of their influence of the "imperial" era.

As a result, the secular monarchs decided that "it is possible" – and not only for the French king. And after the beginning of the rise of the economy in the 16th century – because of warming, innovation and maritime expansion into the New World and beyond – what else is needed.

Now a little bit of Russian economic theory. Catholic economic ethics and the economic structures created by the Church have become banally outdated in regions predisposed to rapid economic growth. At the same time, it should be understood that even moderate capitalism and the other spirit of Protestantism in an economy with growth of 0.1% per year (for harsh objective reasons) will simply kill this economy. Because this is a zero-sum game. That is, if someone becomes richer, then someone becomes poorer, and if someone starts working more, someone will be left without a job. Hence the complex system of checks and balances, which seems from the capitalist reality to be a non-functional whim.
This worked well in the Middle Ages, but even then there were exceptions in the most dynamic regions. After 1500, half of Europe became an exception.

As for the Terrible Abuses(tm) ... three–quarters of them are banally sucked out of the finger by propaganda, and if popes were absolutely holy people – which in general has been a rare excess since the beginning of time - then the situation, if it had changed, would have been the opposite of what was expected. For it was, to put it mildly, futile to fight against the characters who smelled the smell of money and church property with personal holiness. Paper and a printing press are whatever cheaper than something that can be looted. The "highly moral" Henry the Eighth and his vassals will happily confirm this.
But the Habsburg soldiers and bonfires had a Powerful Practical Value.

And comparing the height of the Papacy to that of secular nations seems odd.

Uh…Why? The secular power of the popes had an extremely practical expression.
1. They directly exercised administrative control over very impressive territories outside central Italy. See the map of church properties.
2. Many secular sovereigns, up to and including kings, were vassals of the pope
3. Popes collected tithes, which in terms of physical expression did not differ from tribute. At the same time, they operated with an apparatus of coercion – it is obvious that you can not pay tithes only at the instigation of the Devil and it's time to send good guys from the Order of the dogs of the Lord (Dominicans) to the fallen into Satanism. For a thoughtful soul-saving conversation in the Inquisition basement.
If you think that the sacred status of popes changes everything, then I have a long series of surprises for you. In fact, the status of the pope was fundamentally lower than the living gods, which were considered to be the pharaohs, the "divine" emperors of Rome, Japan, etc. This is the level of trivial priest-kings, who are the rule rather than the exception in a crowd of monarchs. See, for example, Maya, Sumer, China, Tibet, the Caliphate, the Ottoman Empire (the Sultan was also the caliph), England. The King of which, I remind you, is also the head of the Anglican Church. And finally, modern Iran is quite officially a theocratic state.
 
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Age of Myhology did earthquakes rendered quite well.
Any one played Empire Earth I? Prophets causing earthquakes, volcanos, hurricanes and all kind of disaster were pretty fun.

Going back to topic Julius II is my favorite Pope for CIV.
 
I know he's pretty recent, but if the idea was to make the Vatican a 1 city civ like Venice in civ 5, then I think the obvious choice is Pius IX.
 
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