rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Except some of the disaster spells require 5 1st Generation Slann. So, ya still would want 3 Great Clerics.
PL Mod-Mod Wish List/Brainstorm Thread
- Thread starter Psychic_Llamas
- Start date
Except some of the disaster spells require 5 1st Generation Slann. So, ya still would want 3 Great Clerics.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
thats the intention
the slann are peant to be the power house for the lizzies with the normal units being primarily cannon fodder (with a few select elite troops, ie temple guard, steggadon riders, terradons and kroxigores... chamelion skinks too probably etc) the slann are both their strongest... and weakest point, in that they are the most powerful units, but if they die, the lizzies are screwed.EDIT: oh, and i know ive been promiosing to start work on this for a long time, but RL and work has been pretty intense of late, ill DEFINATELY start working on it next monday, and ill post change logs as i go
keep throwing ideas out there i still visit here daily so ill reply pretty soon
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
UPDATE:
so ive finally gotten some free time to start modding again, and i went through and did all my little changes to the spell casters and the different magic techs avaliable to each civ... and when i started it up, it exploded at me with a billion errors... and then i realised i had forgotten to back up the cursed files... so there goes my free time
ah well, ill take some time to ease back into modding anyway... ill just have to redo it
so ive finally gotten some free time to start modding again, and i went through and did all my little changes to the spell casters and the different magic techs avaliable to each civ... and when i started it up, it exploded at me with a billion errors... and then i realised i had forgotten to back up the cursed files... so there goes my free time
ah well, ill take some time to ease back into modding anyway... ill just have to redo itfrenzyslave
Warlord
Its a bugger when stuff like that happens...
Ahriman
Tyrant
Recon unit discussion shifted here from bug thread.
I would emphasise that whatever changes made need to be done in such a way to make it useable by the AI.
The AI isn't ever going to be able to sensibly be able to use an ambush ability.
It also isn't really going to sensibly be able to keep units with invisibility in some particular terrain in only that terrain.
And it isn't going to be able to sensibly choose terrain-specific camo promotions.
However, if you didn't like a general friendly territory invisibility (actually I'd make it all territory except that of factions you are at war with), you could implement something like this by hardcoding them by faction. Give them both terrain invisibility AND a terrain attack bonus in a combined bonus (with the terrain attack representing ambush capability).
Eg; Dwarf and ork skirmishers get Hills camoflage, which makes them invisible in hills and gives 20% hills attack. Elves for forest, lizards for jungle, chaos for tundra, desert for araby, etc.. Probly undead factions shouldn't get recon units.
The untis can learn the other promotions, but only start with their favored one, and the AI won't ever bother getting non-specific ones as promotions.
I like the idea of a separate monster-slaying promotion though, only available to recon units - and maybe Dwarven Slayer units once implemented. Should be easy to implement.
I would emphasise that whatever changes made need to be done in such a way to make it useable by the AI.
The AI isn't ever going to be able to sensibly be able to use an ambush ability.
It also isn't really going to sensibly be able to keep units with invisibility in some particular terrain in only that terrain.
And it isn't going to be able to sensibly choose terrain-specific camo promotions.
However, if you didn't like a general friendly territory invisibility (actually I'd make it all territory except that of factions you are at war with), you could implement something like this by hardcoding them by faction. Give them both terrain invisibility AND a terrain attack bonus in a combined bonus (with the terrain attack representing ambush capability).
Eg; Dwarf and ork skirmishers get Hills camoflage, which makes them invisible in hills and gives 20% hills attack. Elves for forest, lizards for jungle, chaos for tundra, desert for araby, etc.. Probly undead factions shouldn't get recon units.
The untis can learn the other promotions, but only start with their favored one, and the AI won't ever bother getting non-specific ones as promotions.
I like the idea of a separate monster-slaying promotion though, only available to recon units - and maybe Dwarven Slayer units once implemented. Should be easy to implement.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
I think the AI can handle it a lil more than you think actually. They can handle the animosity concept that applies to greenskins.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
i like the idea of adding attack bonus to those inds of terrains. it will give the ai incentive to go for those promotions (i can also fiddle with AI weighting of different promotions i think, ill have to check. but i suspect promotions will be the simplest way to make recons more diverse and important.)
persoanlly i dont like invisibility in a factions borders, purly because it will be too overpowered. invisibility in FfH is only on assassins (and some esus spell), and that has a unit cap. so id like to keep permanent invisiblity to UUs such as DE units and some special units for other factions such as chamelion skinks (lizzies) and way watchers (WE).
another concept i was toying with is the ability to 'place a trap' ie casting a spell which summons a trap unit from lutefisk mafias Dungeon adventures mod. then place a unit limit on the number of traps, similarly to the summoning of skelletons in FfH. the trap summoned would vary according to the unit, some may reduce movement for a turn or 2, some may damage, some may poison etc etc. might take the AI a while to figure that out, but i think it would be VERY cool
persoanlly i dont like invisibility in a factions borders, purly because it will be too overpowered. invisibility in FfH is only on assassins (and some esus spell), and that has a unit cap. so id like to keep permanent invisiblity to UUs such as DE units and some special units for other factions such as chamelion skinks (lizzies) and way watchers (WE).
another concept i was toying with is the ability to 'place a trap' ie casting a spell which summons a trap unit from lutefisk mafias Dungeon adventures mod. then place a unit limit on the number of traps, similarly to the summoning of skelletons in FfH. the trap summoned would vary according to the unit, some may reduce movement for a turn or 2, some may damage, some may poison etc etc. might take the AI a while to figure that out, but i think it would be VERY cool
Ahriman
Tyrant
No they can't; animosity just happens to them. They are completely passive about it, they don't respond meaningfully like keeping big stacks of units with Disciplined units or keeping important units separate.
I doubt the AI will also be able to intelligently select promo ; their promotion weights are just going to be hardcoded. I'd primarily make the units just start with a promotion that suits their faction. I guess you could make the invisibility a promotion.
Also, keep in mind that as it stands, Ranger units *are* a UU, capped at 10. 10 invisible units of medium strength really aren't that powerful. If you make them invisible anywhere, that still won't be that powerful if you take away their pillage ability.
If your terrain bonuses are promotions that you want people to spend levelups on, then make sure they're worth it; terrain promotions are so specialist that they're often pretty weak.
I think a trap doesn't really make sense in the large regiment/battlefield sense. And the AI won't be able to place it intelligently on key tiles. For trap code though; one of the heroes in the original FFH1 had a trap ability where they could lay up to 3 landmine style traps.
Maybe just as a specialist unit for a couple of factions, but it doesn't really fit the flavour for most factions.
I definitely like the idea of a Beastslaying promotion though, +50% vs bestial units. Dwarven Slayer units should start with this promotion. Make Slayer units use the monster taming research line.
Trollslayer; National cap 5, strength 4 can use metals, 1 move, starts with Beastslaying. Requires Monster Lore tech 1.
Dragonslayer; Nat cap 3, upgrades from level 4+ Trollslayer, strength 10, can use metals, requires Monster lore tech 2.
Daemonslayer; Natcap3 upgrades from level 6+ Dragonslayer, strength 14, can use metals, starts with Demonslaying promotion, requires Monster Lore tech 3.
Daemonslayer.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Then the AI can be programmed in the style of FfH (tho to fit WHFB, course). AI improvement is always an ongoin thing anyway. And the AI can be programmed to unnerstand these promotions. Hell, Firaxis found a way for the AI to unnerstand the promotions in BTS. And I'm sure that was a b*tch durin testin for a long while, man.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
except for the fact that i know nothing at all about AI programming... promotions are simple to implement, and i could easilly add a secondary bonus that the ai would see as benefitial, ie terrain attack bonuses and perhaps a first strike...
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
There ya go, man. See, problem solved, imho.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
ok, so looking through the code these promotions are or will be, useless, as woodsman 2 already does what i had planned for forest navigation, and guerilla 2 does what i had planned for hill navigation... but both of those are better. ill keep mountaineering, but ill make gurilla 2 a prerequisite and make that a recon only promo... and ill still add in stealth and camophlage... as well as beast killing promos.
also i cant do terrain specific ivisibility unless a new tag is added and i dont know how to do that
so either i combine hill camophlage and forest camoplage into a single 'camophlage' promotion that grants total invisibility to the unit, or we scrap that idea. whats the consensus?
also i cant do terrain specific ivisibility unless a new tag is added and i dont know how to do that
so either i combine hill camophlage and forest camoplage into a single 'camophlage' promotion that grants total invisibility to the unit, or we scrap that idea. whats the consensus?
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
An alternative would be to scrap Woodsman and Guerilla Promos. Jus an alternative, not whether it should be done or not. Let some debate happen 1st, if someone desires to debate it.
also i cant do terrain specific ivisibility unless a new tag is added and i dont know how to do that
I say go for it.
And a 3rd option (which I'd vote for given the chance):
Or (tho this might be more complex and take more time) ask someone who knows how to add tags. Unfortunately, I've no idea how to and therefore feel your pain.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
RECON MOD 0.1 (yet to be uploaded)
Promotion changes:
1. added 'Mountaineering' promotion, requires 'Guerilla 2', +20% hill attack and defence, move through peak tiles. recon only.
2. added 'Animal Tracking' promotion, require hunting tech, +25% vs animals, recon only
3. added 'Beast Tracking' Promotion, requires Hunting tech, requires 'combat 2' and 'Animal Tracking' promotions, +25% vs animals, +30% vs Beasts, captures animals after combat. recon only
4. changed 'Subdue beast' to: require 'beast tracking' promo and monsterbonding tech, gives +40% vs beasts, captures beast units after combat. recon only.
5. Added 'Stealth' Promotion, Require 'Drill 2' and 'tracking' tech. adds 10% withdrawl chance, can explore rival territory.
6. Added 'Camophlaged' Promotion, requires 'Stealth' and 'Drill 3', adds invisibility.
Promotion changes:
1. added 'Mountaineering' promotion, requires 'Guerilla 2', +20% hill attack and defence, move through peak tiles. recon only.
2. added 'Animal Tracking' promotion, require hunting tech, +25% vs animals, recon only
3. added 'Beast Tracking' Promotion, requires Hunting tech, requires 'combat 2' and 'Animal Tracking' promotions, +25% vs animals, +30% vs Beasts, captures animals after combat. recon only
4. changed 'Subdue beast' to: require 'beast tracking' promo and monsterbonding tech, gives +40% vs beasts, captures beast units after combat. recon only.
5. Added 'Stealth' Promotion, Require 'Drill 2' and 'tracking' tech. adds 10% withdrawl chance, can explore rival territory.
6. Added 'Camophlaged' Promotion, requires 'Stealth' and 'Drill 3', adds invisibility.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Its generally impossible to balance these promotions without knowing whether you'd plan to let units start with them; are you creating these as weak promotions that are free, or do you expect units to spend levelups on them?
Most of the existing terrain promotions are very weak; it is very rare that I would *ever* get them in the normal course of play, depending on the map. Exception for WoodElves who can terraform so their forester promotions are useful.
I strongly dislike the idea of making these promotions require so many prereqs; you’re not boosting recon units by adding an extra mediocre promotion only available to a level 3 units.
I would want these specialist promotions to be available without any promotion prereqs.
The point isn't to make level 3-4 recon units a bit better; they need to be better from the start.
My design principle would be this; create a parallel line of promotions for forester, guerilla, jungle combat, only available to recon units, but make them superior. So rather than making mountaineering *require* Guerilla promotions, instead take Guerilla promotions away from recon units and give them Mountaineering promotions instead. Mountaineering 1: +25% hills attack and defence, can move through peaks.
Mountaineering 2: +25% hills attack and defence, double speed through hills.
Or at the very least have recon units start with some of these promotions.
A suggestion for camoflage;
If you can't get it to balance only from promotions only, create a "camoflage" spell like Hide, maybe make it take 2 turns to cast, that adds the camoflage promotion (same as invisibility), that is removed by combat. Somehow create an AI script so that the AI casts the camoflage spell whenever it can for any recon units.
I think we should have a monsterslaying ability that isn't about capturing.
Trollslayers *kill* trolls, they don't tame them for use by the dwarves. Elven skirmisher/hunter units kill monsters, they don't start using them.
In FFH the capture options are there because the handful of monster units are barbarians. Here, most factions have Monster units as buildable in-faction units. I think its very out of flavor for high elves to capture and use some manticores, or for goblins to capture and start using pegasai or griffons, or for the empire to capture and use chaos giants. The monsterslaying promotions should be like Shock or Formation; they're specialist combat promotions, not for capturing.
I really really dislike the idea of recon unit upgrades requiring Drill promotions. Drilling on parade grounds is something you do with regulars; it represents improved training. Recon units are exactly the opposite of this; their training is about taking advantage of terrain and moving rapidly.
Most of the existing terrain promotions are very weak; it is very rare that I would *ever* get them in the normal course of play, depending on the map. Exception for WoodElves who can terraform so their forester promotions are useful.
I strongly dislike the idea of making these promotions require so many prereqs; you’re not boosting recon units by adding an extra mediocre promotion only available to a level 3 units.
I would want these specialist promotions to be available without any promotion prereqs.
The point isn't to make level 3-4 recon units a bit better; they need to be better from the start.
My design principle would be this; create a parallel line of promotions for forester, guerilla, jungle combat, only available to recon units, but make them superior. So rather than making mountaineering *require* Guerilla promotions, instead take Guerilla promotions away from recon units and give them Mountaineering promotions instead. Mountaineering 1: +25% hills attack and defence, can move through peaks.
Mountaineering 2: +25% hills attack and defence, double speed through hills.
Or at the very least have recon units start with some of these promotions.
A suggestion for camoflage;
If you can't get it to balance only from promotions only, create a "camoflage" spell like Hide, maybe make it take 2 turns to cast, that adds the camoflage promotion (same as invisibility), that is removed by combat. Somehow create an AI script so that the AI casts the camoflage spell whenever it can for any recon units.
I think we should have a monsterslaying ability that isn't about capturing.
Trollslayers *kill* trolls, they don't tame them for use by the dwarves. Elven skirmisher/hunter units kill monsters, they don't start using them.
In FFH the capture options are there because the handful of monster units are barbarians. Here, most factions have Monster units as buildable in-faction units. I think its very out of flavor for high elves to capture and use some manticores, or for goblins to capture and start using pegasai or griffons, or for the empire to capture and use chaos giants. The monsterslaying promotions should be like Shock or Formation; they're specialist combat promotions, not for capturing.
I really really dislike the idea of recon unit upgrades requiring Drill promotions. Drilling on parade grounds is something you do with regulars; it represents improved training. Recon units are exactly the opposite of this; their training is about taking advantage of terrain and moving rapidly.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
great review, thanks for the input ahriman. ill fiddle some more tomorrow or when i have time, right now its 2 am and i need some sleep 
ill make a quick summary of what id do with this new input:
1. make guerilla and woodsman promotions avaliable to all unit types except recon.
2. add 'mountaineering 1' promotion for recon units only. +30% hill attack and defence, can move through peaks.
3. add 'mountaineering 2' promotion for recon units only. +30% hill attack and defence, double move through hills.
4. POSSIBLY add an additional 'mountaineering 3' promotion for recon units only. +20% hill attack and defence. probably not necessary.
5. add 'Forest Navigation 1' promotion for recon units only. +30% forest and ancient forest attack and defence, double moves through forests?
6. add 'Forest Navigation 2' promotion for recon units only. +30% forest and ancient forest attack and defence, needs something else...
7. add 'Jungle Navigation 1' promotion for recon units only. +30% Jungle and Deep Jungle attack and defence, double moves through Jungle?
8. add 'Jungle Navigation 2' promotion for recon units only. +30% Jungle and Deep Jungle attack and defence, also needs something else...
9. Add 'Stealth' Promotion. adds 10% withdrawl chance, can explore rival territory.
10. Added 'Camophlaged' Promotion, requires 'Stealth', adds invisibility, or ability to cast a spell for temporary invisibility as per Hide.
11. add 'Animal Tracking' promotion, require hunting tech, +25% vs animals, recon only
12. add 'Beast Tracking' Promotion, requires Hunting tech, requires 'Animal Tracking' promotion, +25% vs animals, +30% vs Beasts, captures animals after combat. recon only
13. add 'Beast Slaying' Promotion, require 'beast tracking', +40% vs Beasts.
ill make a quick summary of what id do with this new input:
1. make guerilla and woodsman promotions avaliable to all unit types except recon.
2. add 'mountaineering 1' promotion for recon units only. +30% hill attack and defence, can move through peaks.
3. add 'mountaineering 2' promotion for recon units only. +30% hill attack and defence, double move through hills.
4. POSSIBLY add an additional 'mountaineering 3' promotion for recon units only. +20% hill attack and defence. probably not necessary.
5. add 'Forest Navigation 1' promotion for recon units only. +30% forest and ancient forest attack and defence, double moves through forests?
6. add 'Forest Navigation 2' promotion for recon units only. +30% forest and ancient forest attack and defence, needs something else...
7. add 'Jungle Navigation 1' promotion for recon units only. +30% Jungle and Deep Jungle attack and defence, double moves through Jungle?
8. add 'Jungle Navigation 2' promotion for recon units only. +30% Jungle and Deep Jungle attack and defence, also needs something else...
9. Add 'Stealth' Promotion. adds 10% withdrawl chance, can explore rival territory.
10. Added 'Camophlaged' Promotion, requires 'Stealth', adds invisibility, or ability to cast a spell for temporary invisibility as per Hide.
11. add 'Animal Tracking' promotion, require hunting tech, +25% vs animals, recon only
12. add 'Beast Tracking' Promotion, requires Hunting tech, requires 'Animal Tracking' promotion, +25% vs animals, +30% vs Beasts, captures animals after combat. recon only
13. add 'Beast Slaying' Promotion, require 'beast tracking', +40% vs Beasts.
Ahriman
Tyrant
This looks good. I might add Marshes into the Jungle promotions though. This won't make any difference within Lizardman terrain (since marshes autoconvert to swamps) but will provide some uses outside it. Jungle is pretty rare compared to forests and hills.
I'd think about letting the various recon units start with at least one of these promotions (either terrain bonus OR stealth OR beast tracking), as suits their faction. Stealth or beast tracking might suit the more civilised factions.
I'd also think about adding a Tundra/ice terrain version. And maybe a desert version. These versions might not be worth spending promotions on, but still worthwhile as free starting promotions for Araby/Norsca/Kurgan etc.
Also, spelling issue; camouflage, not camouphlage.
I'd think about letting the various recon units start with at least one of these promotions (either terrain bonus OR stealth OR beast tracking), as suits their faction. Stealth or beast tracking might suit the more civilised factions.
I'd also think about adding a Tundra/ice terrain version. And maybe a desert version. These versions might not be worth spending promotions on, but still worthwhile as free starting promotions for Araby/Norsca/Kurgan etc.
Also, spelling issue; camouflage, not camouphlage.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
I think the forest and jungle promotions should be combined. They usually are and it makes sense to combine them since they are both basically thick fauna and trees. Plus, it cuts down on the amount of promotions.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
i was thinking of adding marshes to 'amphibious' but it could work with jungle... if i combine jungle and forest as rlaf suggested then ill put marshes with amphibious.
yeh i was thinking about making civ uniqe buildings which auts grant one or more of those promotions to recons built, like the svartalfar hunting lodge. it would give some of these factions an advantage. tundra and ice and desert are already in i believe 'snowman' etc, i could add ANOTHER more powerful version if you think its necessery, or i could just boost the effects of the current ones.
and yeh im useless at spelling O_o thanks.
Psychic_Llamas
Wizard in the Making
now this is very odd, no matter what i do, if i change the xml file even by changing one word or number, the game has a massive tantrum... and i know that im not making any mistakes...
i have no idea whats up, so untill i figure out whats going on the first version is still a way aways im afraid sorry to dissapoint guys
i have no idea whats up, so untill i figure out whats going on the first version is still a way aways im afraid
sorry to dissapoint guys 
