Planting academies Vs Bulbing GSs with Babylon

anthropophage

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I know the received wisdom on this question is to plant until industrial, save until 8 turns after research labs and burn after that. My question is, how does the Freedom tenet that offers extra beakers from Academies affect this calculation for Babylon, who get more GSs, or Korea, with their superior academies? Is it worthwhile to keep planting until later if the academies are generating more and/or you're getting more GSs?
 
The answer varies depending on different scenarios. If you have many cities (= high science output) it will be more effective to use your GSs for instant science. Usually order is the best ideology but if you choose freedom more academies will prove useful.

In the end I suggest you make a calculation how much science your academy will generate until the end of the game assuming your future GSs adds 8 turns to your finish time. Also take into calculation that the earlier you get the beakers the earlier you get to tech buildings (snowball effect).
 
Disagree on above ideology; I find Freedom to always be the best. 4 City Tradition + complete Rationalism + Civil Service = Massive science from those extra specialists. And level 2 tenet that provides a massive happiness bonus for doing this.

If you are after the most science for bulbing, the new bubling time would in addition be 8 turns after having gotten New Deal.

I don't know if anyone has redone the math on last time to found an academy with BNW, but I think going for science victory with the plan of using New Deal that you may want to found an academy in early Industrial as well if you are going for science victory.

Personally I don't save Great Scientists; I tend to found them as academies for the entire time I'm in Industrial era and bulb immediately starting in Modern *. I rather get a science bonus while it still has a shot at increasing odds of victory instead of waiting until I've already effectively won and all it's going to do is speed up the victory turn.

* Note that I get to Modern via ultra early Radio [one of Oxford or Rationalism finisher]
 
Workers faculties will make order the better ideology, I used to take freedom as well, but after discovering order I won't go back.

Happiness won't be an issue post ideology with 4 cities (though I usually play with more than 4). I don't really see how you manage to finish rationalism to enter modern era early, I usually build oxford to enter modern era at turn 150-170 (depending on how many cities I got, more cities usually means I enter it later but it catches up after that). I have never been close to finishing both tradition and rationalism at turn 160 or so, but I guess with Poland it might be possible?

Also, in my quickest win (Arabia at turn 226), I did save my scientists 8 turns after buying research labs in all my 9 cities, ending up at 2200 BPT at turn 200. However, it took me too long to build Apollo program, and in this case I should have used a few scientists earlier to be able to get an earlier finish. (see this thread for some more hints regarding my way of doing science games on deity: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521065).
 
I also prefer Order for a science victory, plenty of happiness available in both ideologies, so it's the factory bonus from Order that I find the most appealing.

As for scientists, I used to settle all before research centers and bulb after that. Then I saw something tommy posted in a thread about how he usually doesn't settle more than 2 or 3 so I tried that in my last Babylon game. I settled my first 3 scientists and horded the rest until 10 turns after research centers. Beat my previous science best by around 40 turns so I'll be trying that again for certain.
 
What I found is that with a mere 4 cities; that the Factories' science bonus from Order just couldn't keep up with Freedom's Civil Service providing enough of a food discount from specialists to enable all 4 cities to run each and every specialist slot (combined with Rationalism's policy that adds science to all specialists) + Freedom's New Deal giving 5 Academies extra science.

Using Rationalism finisher to enter Modern era early:

1. 4 City Tall Tradition. Including all 4 cities being coastal so your capital can get a cargo ship from all three of them.
2. After finishing Tradition, any two filler policies
3. Use tech prioritization to ensure you enter the Rean era before you'd have to choose a 3rd filler policy
4. Build PT
5. Be sure you get a least the Silver prize for the World's Fair. (Easy to do)
6. Use combo of tech prioritization and RAs to unblock Radio before you finish Rationalism.
 
You don't need to fill all specialist slots all the time (I usually only do it just before my massive GS spam).

If you take 3 policies in patronage you get the policy that gives science from city states which is probably the second best policy for science in the game (after secularism).

Still even in my Babylon game when I hit renaissenance after taking only 1 policy in patronage I wasn't even close to finish rationalism before modern era. I hit modern era at turn 154 in that game which was earlier than the finish of the first vote.

The only way to use the rationalism finisher to enter modern would be to tech slower or possibly by playing Poland.
 
In my experience its wise to plant GS until you have your research labs up. Maybe save a one or two GS if your close to research labs. From there on, just bulb to speed up finish times.
 
You don't need to fill all specialist slots all the time (I usually only do it just before my massive GS spam).

If you take 3 policies in patronage you get the policy that gives science from city states which is probably the second best policy for science in the game (after secularism).

Still even in my Babylon game when I hit renaissenance after taking only 1 policy in patronage I wasn't even close to finish rationalism before modern era. I hit modern era at turn 154 in that game which was earlier than the finish of the first vote.

The only way to use the rationalism finisher to enter modern would be to tech slower or possibly by playing Poland.

In my own games:

Science specialists; Always filled
Guild specialists: Also always filled (I don't build the guild until I'm ready to run it)
Engineer specialists: Run when nothing better; happens to cities with the most water tiles first.
Merchant specialists: Also run when nothing better

My capital gets a lot of food via food cargo ships and so is running all tiles worth running before Civil Service and most of the above specialist. Adopting Civil Service causes it to quickly grow to fill the last few specialist spots even with transitioning Food cargo ships into Hammer cargo ships.

Non capital cities: They aren't getting the massive food, but don't have guilds to run either. They tend to start filling Merchant specialists post Civil Service; having already expanded to work all tiles + scientists + some of the engineer slots before then.

Patronage & science: Unless playing Greece, it's a very bad return. City states aren't allowed to build NC (since the early days of Vanilla) and so their science rate sucks. They instead are granted techs that 2 major players have. Even having 5 city state allies is less than the Rationalism opener.

Looks like for you, the policies were the bottle neck instead of science.
Focus slightly more on culture; such as building a guild. But not too much as you don't want to be forced into taking a 3rd policy post Tradition while waiting for Rean.
But the moment that happens, increase focus on guilds and the remaining cultural buildings, but not at the expense of science.
Ensure there is a World's Fair vote and that you get the Silver prize to grant a policy.

Best two filler policies for increasing cultural rate are:
1) If the first group of city states you discover are cultural, then Consulates. Doing the city state requests from a base of 25 (Consultates + Pledge to Protect) will make you friends for a long time
2) If not, then the policies that increase guild spawn rate + cultural building production rate will also improve culture.

Babylon in hands of the human though does have the best science rate in the game (Academy as soon as Writing); so it may be much easier for civs with a bit less of a science bonus to finish Rationalism at the time I stated; but you don't need to be Poland.
 
I know the received wisdom on this question is to plant until industrial, save until 8 turns after research labs and burn after that. My question is, how does the Freedom tenet that offers extra beakers from Academies affect this calculation for Babylon, who get more GSs, or Korea, with their superior academies? Is it worthwhile to keep planting until later if the academies are generating more and/or you're getting more GSs?

Why wait 8 turns? Is their some formula that goes back to what science levels were 8 turns earlier?
 
regarding planting or bulbing, for a superfast SV - saving GS's for bulbing is just superior to acadamies

Someone did the math for that in G&K: And pre Industrial, the Academies return was far higher due to number of remaining turns in the game being high enough.
BNW has done nothing that would move up the break even point for science victory; and in fact appears to have moved it back for this type.
 
Someone did the math for that in G&K: And pre Industrial, the Academies return was far higher due to number of remaining turns in the game being high enough.
BNW has done nothing that would move up the break even point for science victory; and in fact appears to have moved it back for this type.

you cannot generalize this math, say you make 300 beakers with 5 cities, adding that 8x1.83~= 14.6 , compared to i think its 8 turns of research, which in the lategame could be 1200x8=9.6k ~= 700 turns of academy science
, generally you can bulb a scientist for about 10k science, and an acedemy in the capitol is somewhere between 14 and 19 science depending on labs or not, but labs is just for a short while in the game.

lets say you get 16 science/turn average from acedemy, you would need about 600 turns to make it worth...

i dont see how you make your point about settling being superior pure science wise, its only good for the short term science grabs, such as if your pop/gold is high enough, you can get to edu etc slightly faster, but even then i think its juts better to bulb GS for those techs.
 
Suppose you have been saving GS since public schools and waited until 8 turns after research labs are up and running. If you have four or five GS saved up, should you bulb them all at once or should you bulb them one at a time over the next few turns? Is there any difference in the beakers you get?
 
Space station project is available at atomic era, right? You could hoard up GS' until atomic era, win the space station project, if you can, which gives free GS + tech boost + 33% more effective bulbing and then bulb to satellites to work on the Hubble Space Telescope and then bulb to your intended victory (internet for CV, spaceship part techs for SV, Stealth, XCOM's and GDR's for DV and and globalization for DipV). Is this an ideal approach?

Also, regarding rationalism finisher, like Oxford University, I usually prefer to leave it for a bit later in game, between atomic and information. It also depends on whether I've got lots of faith stored away.
 
you cannot generalize this math, say you make 300 beakers with 5 cities, adding that 8x1.83~= 14.6 , compared to i think its 8 turns of research, which in the lategame could be 1200x8=9.6k ~= 700 turns of academy science
, generally you can bulb a scientist for about 10k science, and an acedemy in the capitol is somewhere between 14 and 19 science depending on labs or not, but labs is just for a short while in the game.

lets say you get 16 science/turn average from acedemy, you would need about 600 turns to make it worth...

i dont see how you make your point about settling being superior pure science wise, its only good for the short term science grabs, such as if your pop/gold is high enough, you can get to edu etc slightly faster, but even then i think its juts better to bulb GS for those techs.

A G&K thread did indeed calculate all that.
And you are way underestimating the true value of each Academy. Just like all other city sources of science, it gets improved by Universities / National College / rationalism's opener / rationalism's policy that increases city science bonuses etc.
 
1. In my current game I get roughly 2x as much science from city states compared to excess happiness so the conclusion that the patronage policies is worse than rationalism starter is simply not true in most cases.
2. You can only use math here if you do certain assumptions. For some reason people seems to be locked into 4 city tradition peaceful strat. This is not the fastest way to do a science win.
3. Even if you do play 4 city tradition, applying math that assumes that 1 bpt at turn 100 = 1 bpt at turn 200 is simply incorrect. The earlier the science comes tve more value it has. Getting +100 bpt at turn 10 is totally game breaking but getting +100 bpt at turn 200 is just a (minor) bonus.
 
1. In my current game I get roughly 2x as much science from city states compared to excess happiness so the conclusion that the patronage policies is worse than rationalism starter is simply not true in most cases.

I agree on deity, but not for lower difficult level. And Ratio only need it, with scholasticism you need to be ally.

According on what you said and Browd link, I need to math (or play) a game with planting academies and another with bulbing.
Math is extremely hard because you need to look after cities growth, total science need, effect earlier or later of university, obs, school and labs. Also, effect of worker's faculties or new deal. And worker's faculties with or without planting.
 
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