Yeah, paradox games can end up being expensive. But keep in mind that it's usually yearly expansion packs spread out over more than a decade. If you join late, it's going to feel expensive no matter what, simply because of the amount of content. If there was a good civ game with yearly expansion packs over a decade, I doubt many people here would be complaining. Of course, that requires the game to actually be good - or at least have a solid foundation. I can't see that being the case for Civ 7. Either way, I don't think Paradox titles are as predatory as Firaxis' titles. Their games also iterate on existing systems in sequels instead of scrapping everything and starting over with each new release.
I have put 100 of hours into EU4 , Hoi4 and Stellaris without the need for DLC or additional “packs “
And $130 for a sloppy mess ..
To be fair, on the paradox forums, the common number for finishing the tutorial of EU4 is 500 hours. So, for 100 hours you really shouldn't need any other packs (especially as many important DLC mechanics such as government, extended diplomacy, and war rework have been added into the base game a few years after they came with paid DLC). The "need" for packs arises if you are looking for differences between the different parts of the world besides geography: thousands of region- or country-specific events, unique mechanics, playing non-monarchies, non-generic mission trees etc. I don't think these things are very important in your first 5 or so campaigns. But if you hit 20, you probably don't want to be playing with the generic stuff.
In your case, for example, you might want to play Scotland, which is fine in the base game, as it is in an interesting situation geographically and politically, and there is quite some thing to do. But wouldn't it be even better if you get unique missions to take over then British Isles with unique rewards? And use innovativeness (a DLC mechanic irrc) as a key distinguishing feature of your empire, while also working towards a wooden wall of ships around the isles? And get unique Scottish advisors and great people through historic events? There is an also a unique government reform iirc, and Edinburgh Castle as a wonder with 3 tiers that want to be built. Without these, the difference between playing Wales or Scotland isn't large, besides the initial situation for the first 20 or so years, as Scotland is stronger and can take out England quickly due to its alliance with France, while Wales is a bit more precarious. This is when the additional packs become interesting.
Yes, I sound like a PDX marketing person. But in my defense: I'll probably never play a single game for as many hours than I've played EU4, and even if I know that I've probably spend 500+ € on the game (over 10+ years), it feels good value, as it's not just quantity that I got, but many, many nice memories of interesting campaigns. It's probably also helped a lot by campaigns being more easily distinguishable than the ones in civ games, because I usually don't repeat countries in EU4, and if so, I have very different goals.
The late game fatigue for me was much worse in Civ VI compared to V. While I was definitely trying to get to the end quickly on both games, there was just a lot more to micromanage in VI compared to V just by the nature of that game's design. It also helped that you could buy spaceship parts with gold with certain ideological tenants in V, and also with less to do for the space victory than in Civ VI where doing it all was just very tedious to me and why I eventually dropped it.
I am pretty sure the bold is just a running joke through the community. There is no way that one could say that they need 500 hours in the game before they finally get it.
It‘s a joke, but then also not really. It took me a very long time until I could confidently play the hard starts, even on medium difficulty. I‘m not sure if people could pull off Ardabil, Mysore, a Native American tribe, Aztecs or Byzantium after 100h.
Leucarum
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And just like that Paradox announce that Surviving Mars is alive again!
Quick! Mention a bunch of other classic sci-fi strategy games!
Bug Repellent
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Favorite? Master of Orion 2.
Leucarum
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Honestly. Yes. 100%
But not on GOG, which is where I have it.
Leucarum
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Aha! There's the Monkey's Paw. I knew it would be somewhere...But not on GOG, which is where I have it.
One Stars! remake please! Maybe I'm finally old enough to understand what on earth is going on.
I'm always surprised by the player counts on paradox games, I've bounced off most of them barring age of wonders 4 but it seems like it never had huge success compared to the others in the catalogue.
Paradox games are different in style. They are not turn based, UI looks like a potato, the game design drifts over time - usually for the better - and last but not least, they are a DLC powerhouse. EUV already has 3 DLCs announced + a cosmetic pack if you pre-purchase the premium pack. 2K is not the only publisher on this planet that loves money.
And yes, I am on the verge of preordering EUV.
And yes, I am on the verge of preordering EUV.
GeneralZift
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I just couldn't get into Stellaris, every time I play it, it doesn't feel very intuitive, stuff is going on everywhere, things are confusing.
I got fairly far into Stellaris while still being absolutely baffled if I was playing well or not. So I own a couple stars and planets and I think I'm building stuff but also I have half the things on the Stellaris 'Culture' tree. And no army so if I get invaded I don't know what I'm doing.
I know it's hard to compare these things but Civilization was far more intuitive. Even as my first 'grand strategy' or whatever you want to call it, it confused me for a bit.
But most things make logical intuitive sense. Food feeds people make more people. Science make science. Culture make culture. You press next turn and the game just tells you what you need to do. The game pushes you to build some army because barbarians invade you. It tells you to explore with ruins. It's very intelligently designed at a basic level.
For a game with strong simplicity, the difficulty comes from APPLYING the simplicity to complex situations.
The same way the difficulty in Counter-Strike comes from applying the knowledge of the map, tactical awareness, grenade positioning, etc. and not strictly in just understanding how the game works at a fundamental level.
The UI in Civilization is usually its strong point in terms of the way it makes things very easy to understand for newcomers. Also Civilization is not that complex.
So casuals love it for that reason. I still do love it for this reason.
Unfortunately, something about this got lost around the way. I think 7 is more complex in a less explainable way with worse UI.
I got fairly far into Stellaris while still being absolutely baffled if I was playing well or not. So I own a couple stars and planets and I think I'm building stuff but also I have half the things on the Stellaris 'Culture' tree. And no army so if I get invaded I don't know what I'm doing.
I know it's hard to compare these things but Civilization was far more intuitive. Even as my first 'grand strategy' or whatever you want to call it, it confused me for a bit.
But most things make logical intuitive sense. Food feeds people make more people. Science make science. Culture make culture. You press next turn and the game just tells you what you need to do. The game pushes you to build some army because barbarians invade you. It tells you to explore with ruins. It's very intelligently designed at a basic level.
For a game with strong simplicity, the difficulty comes from APPLYING the simplicity to complex situations.
The same way the difficulty in Counter-Strike comes from applying the knowledge of the map, tactical awareness, grenade positioning, etc. and not strictly in just understanding how the game works at a fundamental level.
The UI in Civilization is usually its strong point in terms of the way it makes things very easy to understand for newcomers. Also Civilization is not that complex.
So casuals love it for that reason. I still do love it for this reason.
Unfortunately, something about this got lost around the way. I think 7 is more complex in a less explainable way with worse UI.
aieeegrunt
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Lol you got further with it than I did
GeneralZift
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I tried to give it a real chance because I heard lots of friends say its good. But I rather think that there's a market for a 4X game between the spreadsheets of Stellaris and the simplicity of Civilization in the environment of Space.
I have always been in love with the idea of trading across Space, harnessing Stars, meeting new Alien lifeforms, colonising Planets, so in many ways I am quite interested in Stellaris' concept but not the execution.
I have managed to spend 600 hours in EU4 while owning no more than one third of this game's expansions and DLCs, and I bought most of them on very frequent sales, so I am not very afraid about the next one's value and replayability achievable even without spending fortune.
The differences between civ and paradox games DLC models are, yes paradox games release a *** ton of DLCs, but a) They have extremely long lifecycles, of at least 5 and up to like 10 years of support b) Like I mentioned they very often go on all sorts of sales and c) A huge % of them (most of them?) are quite modular regional content packs only adding content to very particular countries, regions, religions, cultures, government types etc so you feel free to not buy them if you aren't interested in a given segment of the game. Especially as d) Paradox games always get a *** ton of new exciting content via the free patches.
The differences between civ and paradox games DLC models are, yes paradox games release a *** ton of DLCs, but a) They have extremely long lifecycles, of at least 5 and up to like 10 years of support b) Like I mentioned they very often go on all sorts of sales and c) A huge % of them (most of them?) are quite modular regional content packs only adding content to very particular countries, regions, religions, cultures, government types etc so you feel free to not buy them if you aren't interested in a given segment of the game. Especially as d) Paradox games always get a *** ton of new exciting content via the free patches.
Have you tried any of the GalCiv series?
queenpea
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And at the same time Civ VII would benefit massively from nested tooltips…
GeneralZift
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No I have not. Recommended?
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