[R&F] Playing tall

AhemmmGlobalHapinnessAhem... :rolleyes:

Global happiness isn't the reason why tall was better. There were (and are) lots of ways to manage global happiness to allow you to build or conquer as many cities as you want in Civ 5. For most of Civ 5's development, wide was still better, to the point that ICS was still a thing. It was an overreaction in a late balance patch that pushed things too far the other way, and the overreaction was in the cost of national wonders and the amount of hidden corruption.
 
Global happiness isn't the reason why tall was better. There were (and are) lots of ways to manage global happiness to allow you to build or conquer as many cities as you want in Civ 5. For most of Civ 5's development, wide was still better, to the point that ICS was still a thing. It was an overreaction in a late balance patch that pushed things too far the other way, and the overreaction was in the cost of national wonders and the amount of hidden corruption.

No, Global Happiness is the main obstacle and always has been, even if there are "ways" to counter it somewhat. And what "cost" of NWs are you referring to? NWs always had the prereq of "all cities must have X building", factually killing city specialization...
 
No, Global Happiness is the main obstacle and always has been, even if there are "ways" to counter it somewhat. And what "cost" of NWs are you referring to? NWs always had the prereq of "all cities must have X building", factually killing city specialization...

The cost of National Wonders scale with the number of cities you have, which is why you don't want too many cities before you reach the tech that lets you build the National College. The impact of National College is so great it's better, from a science perspective, to have fewer cities in order to get the National College built as quickly as you can. Then you couple that with the hidden corruption cost for each city you have and it's piling on from a science-progress perspective in favour of a small, tall empire over a broader one with more cities.

We'll have to disagree on global happiness. It's never stopped me from building a new city or taking a city and by my memory it was a thing while ICS was still a thing in Civ 5. My memory, of course, is not infallible.
 
The cost of National Wonders scale with the number of cities you have, which is why you don't want too many cities before you reach the tech that lets you build the National College. The impact of National College is so great it's better, from a science perspective, to have fewer cities in order to get the National College built as quickly as you can. Then you couple that with the hidden corruption cost for each city you have and it's piling on from a science-progress perspective in favour of a small, tall empire over a broader one with more cities.

We'll have to disagree on global happiness. It's never stopped me from building a new city or taking a city and by my memory it was a thing while ICS was still a thing in Civ 5. My memory, of course, is not infallible.

Yeah, 5 still had the notion that once you start conquering the world, you can keep conquering without too much concern. However, if you wanted to peacefully expand, or before you started invading, then sticking with 4 cities was generally speaking your best option. I know it was even to the point where you might see a nice city spot with a bunch of resources and luxuries, and I would think to myself, "nah, I think that city's going to be a drag on my empire overall", which is really antithetical to a real 4X game.

6 is at least starting to play with the notion that tall can have some value, with the policy card bonus for 10+ pop. But that's more or less simply shifted the break-even point. I've found with all the other changes that have come in, housing is still too easy to come by, that there truly is no point to building neighbourhoods. And as people have mentioned above, even if I had a city that could grow to size 25, for example, the question is really, why? Sure, I can still make good use of districts up to size 13 or 16 even, but is there ever any point to building a neighbourhood to grow further? At that point all that I'm doing is working a couple specialists extra, but as people have mentioned, the lack of amenities at that level make it almost a negative. I'd much rather be +1 happy in the city than be +0 and be able to work a campus for +2 science. Now, if they did something where a neighbourhood reduced the amenities/population (maybe each neighbourhood increases it, so that by default it takes 2 pop/amenity, with 1 neighbourhood now it's 3 pop per amenity, etc...) then THAT might have some value. Since now you can take a size-15 city, pop a neighbourhood down and it gives you more housing and more amenities. And maybe in that case, there would be a legit argument for throwing a couple of them down in a city to actually keep pushing it out.
 
Tall vs Wide is definitely a peculiarity to Civ 5; most civ games have encouraged mass cities, though the issue was about how fast you could get them.

In this case , Civ 6 does curb expansion by making settlers and districts over time. Of course, nobody notices this because of the close map spawns that encourage war, and easy conquest is where it breaks down, because you don't have to deal with costs at all if you just take cities. The obvious knee jerk option would be to heavily penalize warmongering, which has never worked.The actual result is that not warring is basically playing with one arm behind your back.

It all boils down the AI not presenting enough of a threat or defense, though it certainly has gotten better. When you can just expand at will because the AI can't break through some meager defense, or you can just take AI land at your own leisure, or because you'll stumble upon a win because the AI can't, it will mean that you won't really have to consider the drawbacks of having a large empire.

If multiple AIs were threatening to win the game and you had to go around the world stopping them,. then maybe it'd be different. But they can't even threaten to do so. And even if they were, just build some spies.
 
The Civilization series shouldn't be about many small cities or few large cities. It should be about many large cities.
 
Well that to both, I'd agree. The housing and amenity system is too restricting as ways of increasing it don't really show up and for little effect.
 
They should bring some mechanics in next expanssion to make playing TALL possible
 
The Civilization series shouldn't be about many small cities or few large cities. It should be about many large cities.

Yep. I do like having some limits to expansion - the maintenance system in 4 I thought was a great way to make sure you didn't expand too big too fast, while still knowing that over time it was rare that every new city/population that you added would be a net positive to your empire. But the game should reward you for adding population in any way you know how, and 6 definitely lacks the bonuses to growing tall.

They should bring some mechanics in next expanssion to make playing TALL possible

Well, it's definitely possible now. I had one game recently as Korea where I only settled like 6 or 8 cities, and my biggest ones were like size 25+. But I would rephrase it that they need bonuses that make growing tall encouraged, something to make you want to build neighbourhoods in your cities and grow them big.
 
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Thank you to everyone who replied. I think it would be really cool, if in the next expansion, they add a civilization like Venice from Civ 5. Maybe it doesn't need to be limited to one city, but it would have major small incentives.

Also, perhaps more modding functionality in the future will help. It would be awesome if districts could scale with population to a larger degree.

The way I enjoy is not to warmonger or conquer. I actually don't like fighting at all - I'm a civ pacifist. I just try to build wonders, recruit great people, and have incredible lavish cities.

I just played a game as Brazil and tried a great people focus. It was unfortunate that pretty quickly I have accumulated a very large number of artists, writers, and musicians that I simply cannot use, as there are no great work slots. Furthermore, building any wonders is quite difficult due to the limited number of tiles. I think a possible fix would be to allow the construction of wonders 4 tiles away from the city center, if you control the territory. Also, I would increase the benefits of a large population.
 
I'm a fan of playing tall as well, and unfortunately, it is not viable at all in Civ 6. I understand those who complain that Civ 5 was balanced too far in the opposite direction, although I don't think it is quite as strict as some say. In my normal, peaceful Civ 5 game, I would typically found 5-7 cities, and do extremely well with that. In Civ 6, you need a lot of cities to be competitive, because no matter how tall you make your city, you are not going to get that much more out of it. Yields are largely tied to districts, and a district in a small city is worth just as much as a district in a huge one. Buildings typically give flat yields, rather than percentage boosts like in Civ 5. District workers give you very little, and getting great people is tied to buildings now, rather than to specialists. You will always be better off getting a bunch of small cities, rather than trying to make a smaller number of large ones. There is a sort of pacing mechanic in form of a somewhat dramatic escalation of production costs, but it cancelled out by chopping and gold purchasing, which is how you generally build stuff in the late game. More cities -> more stuff to chop. Also, more cities -> more trade routes -> more gold.

I actually didn't mind global happiness in Civ 5. It provided a pacing mechanic, and meant you had to acquire more stuff, in the form of buildings, resources, techs, wonders or city state friendships, in order to keep a larger (in either the wide or tall direction) empire together effectively. It also tied into the ideologies system in the late game, and helped make the ideological war more interesting. Typically you would work to make your ideology influential, to make competitor civilizations more unhappy, and force them to convert, which would loose them a bunch of tenets. However, each ideology also offered means to combat unhappiness in the form of tenets or wonders. It gave me something to focus on in the late game, which I found much more interesting than setting a dozen unimportant production and worker orders per turn.

I don't expect them to make Civ 6 as biased towards tall play as Civ 5, but I really hope they will at least make it somewhat viable. At the very least, they need to make large cities a lot better, including making them produce more great person points. Making a size 24 city takes a lot more effort than making 6 size 4s, and should be better, not vastly inferior as it is now. Also, it makes absolutely no sense that a Commercial Hub in a size 4 city should be producing as much gold and great merchant points as the Commercial Hub in the worlds largest metropolis.

I have gone back to Civ 5 for the time being.
 
The cost of National Wonders scale with the number of cities you have, which is why you don't want too many cities before you reach the tech that lets you build the National College. The impact of National College is so great it's better, from a science perspective, to have fewer cities in order to get the National College built as quickly as you can. Then you couple that with the hidden corruption cost for each city you have and it's piling on from a science-progress perspective in favour of a small, tall empire over a broader one with more cities.

We'll have to disagree on global happiness. It's never stopped me from building a new city or taking a city and by my memory it was a thing while ICS was still a thing in Civ 5. My memory, of course, is not infallible.

Well yes, I am talking from memory also... about the NC, the strongest barrier to me was the requisite of having libraries everywhere, more than the cost of the wonder itself...
 
The escalating Settlers cost is just a terrible mechanism. I don't know why the development team came up with it, other than possibly:
  • as a reaction to the old tall vs wide dichotomy in Civ 5, thinking they needed to penalize wide somehow; or,
  • as a reflection of chopping increasing as time goes on, and therefore feeling like they to scale everything with chopping.
To the first, it doesn't discourage wide (and I agree with all who've posted that there's no reason to discourage wide anyway), it just tilts the game even further towards "war is easy mode, peace is hard".

To the second, chopping's an issue in Civ 6, and the more the development team adjusts everything else around chopping, the more problems it introduces. I'd really like to see them just get rid of the escalating production from chopping. Make it a flat production boost and be done with it.
 
it just tilts the game even further towards "war is easy mode, peace is hard".

War is easy mode because of the abysmal "AI"... in a game that clearly favors defense (which is good, as it's closer to reality), an AI at least at the level of acceptable would re-balance that tilt.
 
Oh yea, and the other thing is that wonders could be stronger too. Right now, it's rare that any city would be exceptional besides Petra/St. Basil/Chichen but those are pretty big opportunity costs in and of themselves.
 
I really don’t think Civ VI has a problem with Tall per se. That post about whether this meta is even still meaningful for Civ VI is still spot on.

You can play “tall”. It may not be as efficient was wide, but it’s certainly viable.

The real issues to my mind are:

1. What constitutes “tall” has probably changed. It’s not really 4 cities anymore, more like 8 or 12, with maybe 3 or 4 being really big. But I don’t think that’s really a problem. 8- 12 is not overwhelming.

2. You’re maybe not rewarded enough for high pop cities. This doesn’t mean tall isn’t viable; just that it sometimes feels a bit underwhelming.

3. The real meta is between war and peace. War isn’t just too easy; it’s too boring. I’d sort of be happy with being able to easily capture cities, if that then created interesting problems when you tried to hold your stolen empire together.
 
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There are two changes that could make playing tall (as in playing with fewer, fully developed cities instead of the spam of small- to moderate-sized cities that defines the current meta) a viable option.
  1. Specialists need to matter. Right now working all three Campus buildings produces the same science as a well-placed Campus with a Library, and the former produces no additional Great Scientist Points while the latter produces another two per turn. Given the infrastructure needed to develop a city's population to the point where three citizens can be assigned to those buildings, the payoff just isn't there.
  2. If we had more mechanics that generated yield per population, as Reyna's Tax Collector promotion or the Work Ethic follower belief do, then we'd have a stronger incentive to cultivate larger populations in our cities. I think a series of mutually exclusive Neighborhood buildings would do the trick. For example, building a Public School in a Neighborhood could generates .5 science per citizen. So a city of 20 people now generates an additional 10 science. That's something I would invest resources into.
 
Playing "tall" in a 4x where the driving motivator of competition is land/resource scarcity is a degenerate concept outright.

Absolutly not. Is it impossible to have an empire of fewer cities more powerful than one with many cities? You can't think of any big third world country even nowadays with many cities which is less "powerful"/advanced/rich than much smaller first wolrd countries? Did you prefer to own the city of Babylon or 4 other cities of that era that togeather had the population of babylon? Well, and we are talking about population points, because higher points mean more population than lower points, so the big cities do even mean much more population than equal population number small cities.

Having few awesome cities is in not worse, even bringing up real life, which isn't even always good in games, if it damages gameplay variety.

And another point, if at least, settling many cities in good land was better than 1 big city in good land, well ok. But settling any crap city in the tundra is better than adding that population to your big city in an awesome land. And that sucks big time. I dont want few to always be better, I want it to depend on the land/civilization/rivals/and other details of each game.
 
There are two changes that could make playing tall (as in playing with fewer, fully developed cities instead of the spam of small- to moderate-sized cities that defines the current meta) a viable option.
  1. Specialists need to matter. Right now working all three Campus buildings produces the same science as a well-placed Campus with a Library, and the former produces no additional Great Scientist Points while the latter produces another two per turn. Given the infrastructure needed to develop a city's population to the point where three citizens can be assigned to those buildings, the payoff just isn't there.
  2. If we had more mechanics that generated yield per population, as Reyna's Tax Collector promotion or the Work Ethic follower belief do, then we'd have a stronger incentive to cultivate larger populations in our cities. I think a series of mutually exclusive Neighborhood buildings would do the trick. For example, building a Public School in a Neighborhood could generates .5 science per citizen. So a city of 20 people now generates an additional 10 science. That's something I would invest resources into.

Good ideas. but I'd also like soemthing that discourages from building bad cities. If you want a resource in a bad spot, that city should cost you. Right now, every spot in the map is worth a city, and I dont like that. I dont like that because I like terrain to matter. I want to be happy when I see good land for settling. But right now, every land is good for settling, since building disctricts is the most important thing
 
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