PlayWithMe

[Lazy Knight]

I really missed the avatar, it's about time...

Sorry for lack of content

 

[alpaca]

I really missed the avatar, it's about time...

Sorry for lack of content

lol

Yeah I was kinda put off by the 6 kb thing...

 

[EscapedGoat]

V3: I get crashes when i try to load an autosave. The error message makes it pretty clear that it relates to file relating to v 3.0.3 of a mod. Since yours is the only mod i am using, i think the problem lies there

For the turns i did play, i gotta say the combat is a lot different, flanking required to take out barb camps in rough terrain.

 

[TheNoodle]

Well i tried the mod and had a great time. As it happens I almost didn't fight, a diplo and a cultural win, but the higher yields and much bigger cities were fun. I think the cultural growth might be a bit too fastm and of course we can't buy land (600+ gp lol) but I believe that's a bug.

All in all a good effort. Keep it up.

Normand

 

[Brave Sir Robin]

V3: I get crashes when i try to load an autosave. The error message makes it pretty clear that it relates to file relating to v 3.0.3 of a mod. Since yours is the only mod i am using, i think the problem lies there

For the turns i did play, i gotta say the combat is a lot different, flanking required to take out barb camps in rough terrain.

same problem ,I'm afraid

 

[Wolfprint]

Hi Alpaca, I love your ideas for nerfing ICS strategies in this mod, especially the reintroduction of city maintenance. I think it's an inspired idea. I have yet to download the mod, but will do so tonight when I have the time.

I was just wondering about the removal of unit upgrades though. While I can see your rationale for doing so (i.e. avoiding uber-units capable of steamrolling the game), I think the total removal of unit upgrades hinders tactical gameplay somewhat, and reduces the player's attachment to his units. Part of the fun I had in Civ IV was getting really worked up about ensuring certain units of mine survived, got promotions, and got upgraded to last the ages. It was like having your own elite unit, and I spent quite a bit of time giving them unique names to reflect their experience. Getting rid of unit upgrades entirely detracts from this aspect of gameplay, since units inevitably become obsolete.

Instead, why not give the player the option of fielding a larger, more inexperienced army (which can take advantage of the new combat and flanking mechanics you introduced), or fielding a smaller, more elite force? To avoid an uber-unit scenario, experience gain from combat could be reduced or promotions could cost more experience to gain. Also, perhaps every promotion a unit earns would add a multipler to its maintenance cost, so that there is an opportunity cost to keeping an experienced unit over building a new one.

Thanks for the good work. Looking forward to trying out your mod later!

 

[alpaca]

V3: I get crashes when i try to load an autosave. The error message makes it pretty clear that it relates to file relating to v 3.0.3 of a mod. Since yours is the only mod i am using, i think the problem lies there

For the turns i did play, i gotta say the combat is a lot different, flanking required to take out barb camps in rough terrain.

v3.0.3? Sounds like I have to create a new project, let me give it a try. I have to admit I never tried loading a game in v3 because I always changed so much whenever I started one that I started a new one

I do get a bug from loading but no error message... hmm

Wolfprint: You can keep your units around for a large enough number of turns to get attached to them but not forever anymore. An alternative would be making upgrading hideously expensive (similar to how it was in Civ4) so that you only keep well-upgraded units around.

 

[Wolfprint]

I played about a hundred turns, and I am quite impressed. I was actually excited about seeing resources again, and genuinely wary about spamming settlers. For the first time, I didn't quickly rush to the Liberty SP.

Just some minor issues - the Calendar and Mining tech show multiple instances of "Able to build (building)" in the Tech Tree sidebar. I assume this is a bug?

Also, is it normal to have only one copy of a strategic resource in each tile?

 

[alpaca]

Sorry about the load bug, I pinned it down and it is now fixed in a new build attached to the first post. Delete the PlayWithMe (v3) folder in your MODS folder, then put the new mod pack in and install as before.

This build also has the promised higher value of gold in AI trades.

I played about a hundred turns, and I am quite impressed. I was actually excited about seeing resources again, and genuinely wary about spamming settlers. For the first time, I didn't quickly rush to the Liberty SP.

Just some minor issues - the Calendar and Mining tech show multiple instances of "Able to build (building)" in the Tech Tree sidebar. I assume this is a bug?

Also, is it normal to have only one copy of a strategic resource in each tile?

Both are normal. The improvement duplicates are because of the way the game treats culture for improvements (i.e. an improvement will have a fixed culture value, no matter the resource it is put on) so I had to create special entries to allow gold, incense and dyes culture. I also added a different mine for gems and silver but I think I can actually remove that, but didn't get around to it yet.

I reduced the number of strategic resources. It's possible to have 3 in a tile but 1 or 2 are somewhat more likely because they have a chance to get placed twice. Explore a bit more and you'll probably find more resources.

 

[Slowpoke]

Hey, looked at some of your version 3 changes. Have you playtested this a lot? I used to have a lot of your ideas for combat in earlier versions of MM, but they didn't work out in the long run.

Primarily: city hp at 50, 5 healing, and combat buffs is way too high. I can see it needing to be hgiher with a 20 hp unit system, but there needs to be some incentive to warfare. At 12 unit hp and 35 city hp (with nothing else even) war is actually not very profitable in my own mod. Garrison adding full strength would just make the game too easy for the player (half strength maybe is good).

 

[alpaca]

Hey, looked at some of your version 3 changes. Have you playtested this a lot? I used to have a lot of your ideas for combat in earlier versions of MM, but they didn't work out in the long run.

Primarily: city hp at 50, 5 healing, and combat buffs is way too high. I can see it needing to be hgiher with a 20 hp unit system, but there needs to be some incentive to warfare. At 12 unit hp and 35 city hp (with nothing else even) war is actually not very profitable in my own mod. Garrison adding full strength would just make the game too easy for the player (half strength maybe is good).

Actually, the changelog is outdated except in the first post. Cities have 30 hp and 3 hp per turn. Garrison is at half strength again, too, exactly for the reason you mention. I'm quite annoyed the game uses the melee stats of ranged units, though, because that makes them pretty useless as garrison.

The 20 hp feel good, though. I have found some other troubles with how combat plays out now, but am currently waiting for feedback by Martin and luddite who have kindly agreed to test the mod before I do some other significant changes. AI also still suffers from a lot of the changes, and I can see the wisdom in a few vanilla decisions I found questionable. In the end, I will see what I come up with but I need more testing, which is why I didn't make a "stable" release yet on the Mod Browser, just a beta here

I wrote in the first post that I playtest a lot, and I do, but I also like to keep people up-to-date about what I'm planning to change. For example, if you'd got around to reading the changes earlier you could have saved me 30 minutes finding them out myself

The incentive to warfare is there, I think. It is this: You need units for defense, otherwise you will be attacked. If you have units anyways, why not put them to good use and attack a neighbour? You're bound to get some good city spots, which are worth a lot more in PWM than in vanilla with city maintenance and higher tile yields for resources.

Another thing I'm a bit worried about is the high variance I see in different starts. I will probably have to add at least one food resource to the city tile in the AssignStartingPlots to make things a bit fairer.

 

[Slowpoke]

lucky bum I asked for luddite's help but he said he was done with civ 5. Guess the patch changed his mind?

 

[alpaca]

lucky bum I asked for luddite's help but he said he was done with civ 5. Guess the patch changed his mind?

Maybe, who knows? Not sure if he's actually going to get around to running some tests but it would definitely be useful. Already got some useful feedback from Martin playing on Deity (I'm not currently testing above Emperor because I want to get the balance at the medium levels right)

I think luddite is convinced that 1UPT doesn't work in the way it's implemented in civ because the scale of one tile is too large and that this warps gameplay in all areas. This may be true to some extent.

 

[alpaca]

AssignStartingPlots is really a mess. The calculation for your starting position bonus (food) resources is based on a number that takes grassland at 4 food and plains at 3 food, no matter whether they are near a river or not. So if you start in a site full of hills, you'll be even more rewarded by being given food tiles on top of it.

I changed it and will test my changes a bit, then upload a new build tomorrow or something. You now get 1-2 food resources if you start in a good position with lakes, grassland and such, 2-3 if you have very little food, only hills and the like and 1-3 if you start somewhere in between. So you're guaranteed at least one food resource but can get lucky and strike rich.

 

[Sneaks]

Hi alpaca, I have just run 2 games on your mod. One as Alex/Prince/Huge/Abundant and one as Cathy/Emp/Standard/Standard.

In both games, I found the AI to be extremely stingy about ever wanting an even research agreement if I proposed, but very willing to offer an identical deal a turn later. Not sure what to make of that. The gameplay was pretty enjoyable for someone who prefers building big cities mixed with sprawl.

One definite issue was with the unit upgrades. With stronger cities and units, it takes a more sizable force to engage in serious warfare. This in itself is quite fun, and made taking cities more in lines of the difficulty I thought it ought to be. HOWEVER, I was also far far more hesitant to create this massive army because I knew my window for using it was small before I had an obsolete force. The primary reason is that obsolete units provided really 2 options for me: city state gifts and cannon fodder. Neither of which is particularly appealing given the cost.

What I would prefer if you really wish to continue on the no upgrade path is some option to at least "retire" a unit. Perhaps let it upgrade into a worker? Not only would it make better use of the mechanic idea you have, but it would indeed play well into the realism of the game, as retired warriors would return to the fields.

Otherwise, I am enjoying the direction the mod is heading! I would be extremely pleased if you could incorporate some of the more wonderful UI/info mods into yours as well. Primarily, Growth Notification, City/DiploWillard, and InfoAddict. I will continue the playtesting at both higher and lower levels and report back on anything I find noteworthy. I would even lend a hand if the SDK was not totally broken on my machine (alas for awkward errors).

Cheers

 

[Slowpoke]

Well, personally I would just convert my outdated units.. into a puppet city (yay suicide attacks)

 

[Sneaks]

That is usually my current strategy. Hey, you guys with swords: run at that city so we rifles can use your bodies as a ramp over the walls.

 

[Wolfprint]

Inevitably obsolete units make it so much more tempting to suicide them against enemies rather than try to preserve them. It feels as though combat is more strongly a numbers game. That is not to say that there is no tactical value, but success seems more assured if I bring an overwhelmingly massive force, as opposed to a smaller, more well-trained squad.

Also, would having only limited copies of strategic resources in a tile hamper certain civilizations with UUs that need to rely on them? It feels weird that, as Rome, I have to rely on a lone Legion unit and lots of Spearmen. The high cost of Settlers now also means that it becomes a lot harder to capture other copies of strategic resources elsewhere.

 

[Slowpoke]

As far as upgrading, goes, couldn't you just make it more expensive alpaca? That's what I've done. Assuming you removed upgrading to get rid of build warrior>upgrade for ridiculous jump.

 

[alpaca]

One definite issue was with the unit upgrades. With stronger cities and units, it takes a more sizable force to engage in serious warfare. This in itself is quite fun, and made taking cities more in lines of the difficulty I thought it ought to be. HOWEVER, I was also far far more hesitant to create this massive army because I knew my window for using it was small before I had an obsolete force. The primary reason is that obsolete units provided really 2 options for me: city state gifts and cannon fodder. Neither of which is particularly appealing given the cost.

What I would prefer if you really wish to continue on the no upgrade path is some option to at least "retire" a unit. Perhaps let it upgrade into a worker? Not only would it make better use of the mechanic idea you have, but it would indeed play well into the realism of the game, as retired warriors would return to the fields.

Otherwise, I am enjoying the direction the mod is heading! I would be extremely pleased if you could incorporate some of the more wonderful UI/info mods into yours as well. Primarily, Growth Notification, City/DiploWillard, and InfoAddict. I will continue the playtesting at both higher and lower levels and report back on anything I find noteworthy. I would even lend a hand if the SDK was not totally broken on my machine (alas for awkward errors).

Cheers

Maybe it's possible to increase the amount of gold you get back when you delete a unit. I personally quite like the tension between building a unit now or waiting a few turns until I get a new technology. However, don't be hesitant to build units if another tech is still far away. The window for each unit in PWM is quite a bit longer than in vanilla, and units of one tech tier can still successfully fight against the next tier.

I like the idea of upgrading into workers, if they keep their names. This is quite flavourful, really. There is also another option: You can keep them around as garrison. Military Caste isn't so bad if you keep a 1 maintenance unit around to provide that extra happiness, and professional army is quite good now.

As for UI mods, I didn't test the Willards but both Growth Notifications and InfoAddict (v8) are compatible with PWM, so just enable them in the mod browser alongside it. I'm still pondering whether adding them as a package makes sense. If I don't include them, people can choose them if they want to so I don't force certain UI "improvement" on them that they might not want. Since these don't change gameplay much (InfoAddict does a bit with all the extra spy info) I'm not sure it's necesary to include them. There's also the question of updates, though, and a new version might not be guaranteed to be compatible, so as I said I'm still making up my mind.

Inevitably obsolete units make it so much more tempting to suicide them against enemies rather than try to preserve them. It feels as though combat is more strongly a numbers game. That is not to say that there is no tactical value, but success seems more assured if I bring an overwhelmingly massive force, as opposed to a smaller, more well-trained squad.

Also, would having only limited copies of strategic resources in a tile hamper certain civilizations with UUs that need to rely on them? It feels weird that, as Rome, I have to rely on a lone Legion unit and lots of Spearmen. The high cost of Settlers now also means that it becomes a lot harder to capture other copies of strategic resources elsewhere.

Don't under-estimate small forces but yes, that is kind of a design aim. I don't want highly promoted über-elite units to absolutely dominate the field like they do in vanilla. The value of a level 3 unit is still quite high, though. It just won't do much all alone. I had a knight one game with Shock 3 and blitz and he really ripped the enemy to shreds until his health was exhausted.

I didn't have much trouble finding three or four iron with Rome, which is quite enough as Legions are incredible. They also still have the ballista which is really good and requires no resources in this mod.

As far as upgrading, goes, couldn't you just make it more expensive alpaca? That's what I've done. Assuming you removed upgrading to get rid of build warrior>upgrade for ridiculous jump.

I thought about it but I don't think it would work: It will allow massively upgraded super units unless you make it prohibitively expensive.