Please do espionage better than BtS

[Inkling]

i've read a couple places now that later phases of ffh2 will have spies and espionage similiar to bts's model. I implore you, if this is true, please do it better than BtS. For me, it is one of the most aggrevating aspects of the game. I've just quit my last BtS game, and while there were other factors, alot of other factors, the annoying espionage setup was a big one.

without going into a long rant, in my bts games i see the governor pointlessly invest in espionage whenever the oppertunity presents, up to the maximum, even to the point of crippling the city, if not my entire empire, regardless of how worthless the investment is at the time. regardless of how much i could benefit by putting off the investment for even a few turns.

with the only options i can see being, take the hit, micromanage govenor recommendation controls, which gets very tedious, or worse, shut off the governor and micromanage population placement since the default for new population, without a governor, is as a spy specialist. Generally, abhoring such micromanagement, i get frustrated and quit, obviously.

The governor recommendations should have been expanded to accomodate the new additions. Priorities, as opposed to simple on, off buttons. And really, something like an empire wide preference setting similiar to the tax rate would probably be helpful. Near as i can tell from the manual and in game help, nothing was done. To say nothing of the fact that the governor should have been made far more intellegent in his use of spy specialists. But now i am ranting.

Anyway, please, whatever you do, if you choose to implement anything, make sure the AI can use it effectively, and most of all, provide clean easy to use tools to take over for those who find that the AI doesn't manage it correctly, tools that don't simply replace poor AI with equally, or more, frustruting micromanagement.

thank you, and keep up the good work.

 

[im_robertb]

Anyway, please, whatever you do, if you choose to implement anything, make sure the AI can use it effectively...

Uh-oh...who wants to tell him about magic?

 

[rusty217]

governor pointlessly invest in espionage whenever the oppertunity presents, up to the maximum, even to the point of crippling the city

Seriously? crippling the city? +1 research and +4 espionage doesnt really sound like crippling the city.

empire wide preference setting similiar to the tax rate

like the espionage slider that appears near the research slider when you meet another civ?

make sure the AI can use it effectively

The AI seems fine at teh bts espionage system to me...
And also seems effective at using hidden nationality which could be slightly like espionage.....

I think the bts espionage was good...

 

[feydras]

I think BtS espionage is leagues ahead of Vanilla/Warlords spies but I too find parts of it frustrating. Love the passive stuff, find the active stuff frustrating, both to use and as a victim. I'm not sure a better way though.

 

[merciary]

Personally I get hit by AI espionage all the time. I've experienced no problems with espionage.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

i think BtS espionage is very good. Granted, it could be improved, I think for now in FfH it is fine.

 

[Inkling]

Seriously? crippling the city? +1 research and +4 espionage doesnt really sound like crippling the city.

a city with 3-5 population, and the ability to have 9-11, that instead of ballooning to become something productive, is instead limping so it can have a spy, while my economy is tanking due to insufficient funds, which is why i felt compelled to build the courthouse in the first place, to cut maintenance costs, but while it cut cost, it also took a valueable worker and relagated him to a useless, at least at the time, function, so that he is contributing absolutely nothing to the problem i was trying to correct.
so yes, crippling.

like the espionage slider that appears near the research slider when you meet another civ?.

yes, similiar if not exactly like that. As it stands right now, even if i give the governor recommendation to emphasize food, production, commerce, etc. the dang governor still assigns someone to espionage a good chunk of the time unless i start turning on alot of recommendations.

Uh-oh...who wants to tell him about magic?

i assume you are talking about automatic workers wiping out nodes, honestly that one doesn't get to me nearly as much for some reason. though it is annoying. It's probably the fact that i can give workers multiple manual orders and when they run out, they will ask me what to do next, where as a fresh population point will auto assign, so i have to keep monitoring cities to find out who grew, who shifted from building a warrior to a worker, etc. To make sure things are effecient.

otherwise, im not sure what you are refering to

Personally I get hit by AI espionage all the time. I've experienced no problems with espionage.

its not about getting hit by espionage attacks, its getting crippled by the moron governor and being unable to endure the micromanagement required to circumvent the governor.

 

[Randolph]

If you want to use govenors that's your call, but it's hardly news that they suck. Every automated feature of every computer strategy game ever made is horrible (baring traditional board games like chess or go where AI is ironiclly amazing). That's why the AI always needs to have massive bonuses in order to compete with a human player.

I'm not comming down on people who use automation features, if that's the play style that you find most enjoyable go for it, but don't have expectations that it's going to do something that its' not.

 

[Yaotzin]

i assume you are talking about automatic workers wiping out nodes, honestly that one doesn't get to me nearly as much for some reason. though it is annoying. It's probably the fact that i can give workers multiple manual orders and when they run out, they will ask me what to do next, where as a fresh population point will auto assign, so i have to keep monitoring cities to find out who grew, who shifted from building a warrior to a worker, etc. To make sure things are effecient.

otherwise, im not sure what you are refering to

Not to speak for him, but I believe he is referring to the fact that the AI only just understands that magic, probably the single most important part of FFH, even exists. To complain about the AI not understanding espionage properly while they still don't understand magic is...odd.

Anywho, governors suck, they have always sucked, and they will always suck. If you want your cities to Not Suck(TM), you have to micromanage.

If you dislike micromanagement, perhaps you should play MOO3?

 

[Lord Yanaek]

OK, i think the most annoying part of this does not have anything to do with espionage at all, but with govs. Govs tend to place specialists instead of standard workers is several cases with BTS, even to the point of stopping city growth completely or reduce it to a crawl, whil the city still have a decent reserve of happy faces. It happened to me with engineers as well, and even priests. I'm not sure why it does this.

I think THE trouble with the spying as it is, is you don't seem to have any way of protecting yourself against enemy spys. Even if i crank up spying points (like have a city with scotland yard, max spy specialists and some some super-spys as well cranking 400 points alone), even if i have much more spy points than any civ (i see all their research and can investigate most other civs cities, my missions cost me about 70%) and even if i go for counter espionage every 10 turn, the AI agents keep destroying my mines and forges (later factories) so i have to rebuild. It is not a hit in my game, but a real annoyance. I keep catching spies, but more of them keep coming.

In the end, espionage adds some micro management and can become annoying. In FFH, where some micro have already been added (stopping fires, sanctifying, terraforming ...) it might be even more annoying. Please, just keep this in mind.

 

[Inkling]

In the end, espionage adds some micro management and can become annoying. In FFH, where some micro have already been added (stopping fires, sanctifying, terraforming ...) it might be even more annoying. Please, just keep this in mind.

couldn't have said it better myself, obviously. Thank you.

Not to speak for him, but I believe he is referring to the fact that the AI only just understands that magic, probably the single most important part of FFH, even exists. To complain about the AI not understanding espionage properly while they still don't understand magic is...odd.:

not odd, im not complaining that the ai doesnt understand, but that it can't manage it at the most basic level. it doesn't manage my magic, other than automated workers mowing down nodes.

Anywho, governors suck, they have always sucked, and they will always suck. If you want your cities to Not Suck(TM), you have to micromanage.

perhaps you're right, perhaps the programmers suck beyond the ability to ever implement governors correctly, but knowing that, they should design appropriately.

If you dislike micromanagement, perhaps you should play MOO3?

nice. There getting fairly close to having just that

If you want to use govenors that's your call, but it's hardly news that they suck. Every automated feature of every computer strategy game ever made is horrible (baring traditional board games like chess or go where AI is ironiclly amazing). That's why the AI always needs to have massive bonuses in order to compete with a human player.

I'm not comming down on people who use automation features, if that's the play style that you find most enjoyable go for it, but don't have expectations that it's going to do something that its' not.

pre-BtS, as bad as the governor sucked, i could tolerate it, post BtS, i can't. i really like FFH2, id like to keep playing FFH2. So im just hoping the modders realize, if they can't do it right, its gonna hurt the game, and the BtS people didn't do it right.

 

[Calavente]

not odd, im not complaining that the ai doesnt understand, but that it can't manage it at the most basic level. it doesn't manage my magic, other than automated workers mowing down nodes.

that's not the issue : the issue is that AI civs cannot use magic. they don't know how to. So having time spent on curing automated workers razing nodes or spying that is not yet enabled in FFH and might never be enabled as in BTS is IMO not a priority. Much more important is for the AI to understand value of nodes, strategies of magic utilisation, launching rust/fireball, using waterwalking, spring or bless, summoning skeletons, lifesparks and wraith on the good situations, targeting str4mages more than str 5maceman...etc.

I still think the issue you reveal is interesting as maybe (I have not BTS currently) your spying pb is put the lights on strong governors issues in BTS.
but :
IMO, while FFH team sometimes do change the basic stuff, they are doing other things that are more important for the FFH lore.

PS: oh and you know, assigning new peoples in cities is not micromanagement, it is management else how do you call moving govannon around to make your units learn 3 spells and moving all your units to the one mage to get enchanted weapons and arrows and other apporpriate promos ?? What about assigning the good units for the order of battle? this game is not like HMM or AoE... it is made to be micromanaged, not to be automated. so by definition, managing it a bit will always be best and automation will exist but not be very performant as you won't ever have a button ready for every strategy you may invent while playing.
Furthermore in my experience you always want to check every odd turn how your cities are going, changing worked terrain or getting new gpp or different ones...Etc

 

[cephalo]

I think the espionage system in BtS is completely superfluous and unrealistic. For all the work and worry, it adds very little fun. Having a spy unit that can go into enemy territory and see whats going on is just fine. Engaging in terrorist attacks and so forth and not causing a war is really kind of silly, and not nearly worth the effort and cost that goes into it.

 

[Inkling]

that's not the issue : the issue is that AI civs cannot use magic. they don't know how to. So having time spent on curing automated workers razing nodes or spying that is not yet enabled in FFH and might never be enabled as in BTS is IMO not a priority. Much more important is for the AI to understand value of nodes, strategies of magic utilisation, launching rust/fireball, using waterwalking, spring or bless, summoning skeletons, lifesparks and wraith on the good situations, targeting str4mages more than str 5maceman...etc.

I still think the issue you reveal is interesting as maybe (I have not BTS currently) your spying pb is put the lights on strong governors issues in BTS.
but :
IMO, while FFH team sometimes do change the basic stuff, they are doing other things that are more important for the FFH lore.

if they don't implement espionage at all i will be thrilled. If they do, IF, then they need to do it right. I agree 100 percent, focus on the core aspects of ffh as it stands now, magic, unit balance, etc. But the rumor is they will eventually do it. And i'd like to get my two cents out there, because once it shows up in the game, suggestions are going to have alot less impact, they'll already have a course in mind.

PS: oh and you know, assigning new peoples in cities is not micromanagement, it is management else how do you call moving govannon around to make your units learn 3 spells and moving all your units to the one mage to get enchanted weapons and arrows and other apporpriate promos ?? What about assigning the good units for the order of battle? this game is not like HMM or AoE... it is made to be micromanaged, not to be automated. so by definition, managing it a bit will always be best and automation will exist but not be very performant as you won't ever have a button ready for every strategy you may invent while playing.
Furthermore in my experience you always want to check every odd turn how your cities are going, changing worked terrain or getting new gpp or different ones...Etc

Managing every little last detail of the game, whether by intention of the designers or not, is micromanagement. And there is a difference between little things you must do occasionally, that require strategy, thought, and add something to the game, and those things which are just rather tedious and must be done constantly, often without any thought or strategy, or are beyond the average player.
Further more, i do call moving govannon around micromanagement, and while a certain amount is acceptable, tolerable, it gets out of hand really quickly.

while you may enjoy the micromanagement aspect, or atleast not be bothered by it, it should be clear alot of the fan base don't enjoy it, or don't to the extreme it has been taken on occasion. The developers are clearly aware of this, or they wouldn't have tried to automate much of this, their success not withstanding.
For example, i can tell a unit to move to a location, and expect him to find his way. I can send an entire army out to a location without moving each individual troop, i can automate workers, i can assign a governor, i can tell a stack to attack and, atleast it use to, automaticly choose the unit with the best odds to fight. I can even tell a unit to auto explore.

And i accept that if i don't micromanage, i won't get absolutely every last bit of effeciency, but i also expect to not be incredibly handicapped, which is what is happening now.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

If you want to use govenors that's your call, but it's hardly news that they suck. Every automated feature of every computer strategy game ever made is horrible (baring traditional board games like chess or go where AI is ironiclly amazing). That's why the AI always needs to have massive bonuses in order to compete with a human player.

I'm not comming down on people who use automation features, if that's the play style that you find most enjoyable go for it, but don't have expectations that it's going to do something that its' not.

Actually, I remember reading the best Go AI is consistently beaten by mid-level players. It's where the amount of variables really takes off.

In any case, the point is true. If not a spy, the AI would be running a priest or other specialist. It's not very smart, and espionage doesn't change that. They did it well...

 

[Halancar]

I too think the issue is with the governor, not the spying. Playing FFH 2 0.25, I have often noticed that the governor happily puts a citizen on mines, and/or create new specialists, when cities still have a lot of unused growth potential. So you have cities staying at 10 populations that could accomodate 15 or 16 (or even more, I like playing ljosalfar and going for Gardian of Nature, and that makes for big cities), including the specialist the governor so wanted, if said governor would just take the long view and put the citizen on a food producing tile instead of crippling growth to have it now.

 

[Civkid1991]

i think the main point or association of espionage is religious; religion is a function of espionage... or at least the better part (such as hidden nationality) is part of a whole new religion/god/magic sphere

espionage in ffh will not be like BtS i predict due to this... not to sure how exactally espionage will be effected or how it will function but it will be interesting...

 

[Nefelia]

I too think the issue is with the governor, not the spying. Playing FFH 2 0.25, I have often noticed that the governor happily puts a citizen on mines, and/or create new specialists, when cities still have a lot of unused growth potential. So you have cities staying at 10 populations that could accomodate 15 or 16 (or even more, I like playing ljosalfar and going for Gardian of Nature, and that makes for big cities), including the specialist the governor so wanted, if said governor would just take the long view and put the citizen on a food producing tile instead of crippling growth to have it now.

Wouldn't assigning the city governor to prioritize food take care of this problem? I have never had the problems described by your post and many others in this thread, and I'm genuinely curious as to how it comes about.

 

[onedreamer]

without going into a long rant, in my bts games i see the governor pointlessly invest in espionage whenever the oppertunity presents, up to the maximum, even to the point of crippling the city, if not my entire empire, regardless of how worthless the investment is at the time. regardless of how much i could benefit by putting off the investment for even a few turns.

How can investing in espionage cripple your own cities and why the heck do you use governors ??

 

[onedreamer]

Wouldn't assigning the city governor to prioritize food take care of this problem? I have never had the problems described by your post and many others in this thread, and I'm genuinely curious as to how it comes about.

Same here, I reiterate the question: how can investing in espionage (or anything else, for the matter) cripple a city ???