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Please fix Schools

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Red Ant, Aug 12, 2013.

  1. Red Ant

    Red Ant Chieftain

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    Building schools has the odd effect that you LOSE not gain science output. I used to think that is because there is usually more than one religion in a city, and since schools remove the effect of the (usually multiple) monasteries in each city, your science output would decrease (which still doesn't make sense to me ... but anyway). But in my current game, I have only one religion in all my cities, and building the school building still loses me some beakers. :cry:
     
  2. aggri1

    aggri1 Prince

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    Yeah I second this. I've noticed that also.
     
  3. Moonstruck

    Moonstruck Chieftain

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    The real problem here is the difficulty in fulfilling the need to have monasteries phased out, have schools phased in, and, probably most importantly for the sake of game balance, avoid "sweet spots" where both can be had for maximal benefit.

    Now, the issue here stems from an inability to have technologies partially obsolete buildings, that they may be phased out over time, rather than immediately. Fixing this is a bit of a problem, and the only obvious solution requires a fair bit more paperwork than might be ideal, and it can't quite handle all the things which we might want from it, but in the case of something as important as education, the paperwork might be worth it, and the restrictions might still be better than the alternative.

    I have only recently come back to Civ4, and have thus forgotten most of what there is to know about the restrictions of modding, but might it be possible to have a series of national wonders created, that then bestow benefits upon buildings of a particular kind? These could be introduced gradually, that buildings then improve much in the manner of current building chains, and could be obsoleted similarly gradually, as to phase out this "outdated" mode of education, without rendering it completely useless with one fell swoop. They would - again, should it prove to be possible (I willingly admit that I do not recall at current time if it is possible to have national wonders influence the boni granted by individual buildings) - represent nation-wide improvements to the educational system, which should, by their nature, have a roughly even effect on schools across the state.

    Of course, if it isn't possible, then I suspect there is little to do but grit our teeth, mutter a prayer of farewell to sweet Hecate, and wave our monasteries goodbye as we enter a new world of alternative enlightenment.
     
  4. Vokarya

    Vokarya Deity

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    What if School gave a bigger Science bonus? Right now, it's +10%, which is supposed to be equal to one Monastery, without University of Sankore. 20% would cover two Monasteries per city, and I think maybe 25% would be better.

    You can't have a building influence the commerce productions (gold/science/commerce/espionage) of other buildings directly. <GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces> was a tag that I had asked to implement in C2C, to be able to give all buildings an extra +gold or other commerce on construction of a specific Wonder. I think it worked, but it could have done better. There was definitely a problem with those bonuses being cached properly; they'd often disappear on reloading. It also only works with flat bonuses, not percentages.

    If we want to reduce the science output of Monasteries gradually, we should use the <TechCommerceModifiers> tag. Look at the Derivatives tech. It grants +10% gold to Global Stock Exchange and +15% gold to Wall Street. We can do negative modifiers to phase out Monasteries' science bonuses before they go obsolete. I think something like -5% at both Humanism and Public Schooling would work. (Once I upload my tech tree changes, Compulsory Education is getting renamed to Public Schooling. I'm really conscientious about names.) That way we won't have to mess with national wonders.
     
  5. Moonstruck

    Moonstruck Chieftain

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    Oh, right.

    Well, durh, that was a much easier way to go about things. Yes, I think it'd be a good idea. My main beef, so to say, at current time, is with the way such major things are being instantly obsoleted: It may make sense for minor things to just stop being relevant at one particular point, but there are others where it stretches suspension of disbelief, and where it also has some serious downsides for gameplay.

    I don't have the newest version, so I'm not sure if schools are introduced at the same tech as the obsoletion of monasteries, but if not, then perhaps the very best solution would be for schools to gradually "absorb" the monasteries' bonus, by having the techs give, at the same time, a bonus to schools and a penalty to monasteries - the former being, perhaps, greater than the latter, due to multiple instances of monasteries, and to model actual improvement - so that secular schools will at first complement, then overtake and eventually replace, religious forms of education.

    (And yes, I know about your new tech tree - I may or may not have been holding off on switching from Afforess' last version just because I'm waiting for it to be incorporated. Learning a (relatively) new Tech Tree such a short time before yours is implemented makes precious little sense.)
     
  6. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Once 45* is satisfied with his balancing then Vokarya's Tech tree will go in. We're all getting a bit impatient but with just 1 man doing the balancing it really slows down the progress. Not that 45* does not do a great job, he does. But 2 or 3 hands working together is faster I think.

    JosEPh
     
  7. Moonstruck

    Moonstruck Chieftain

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    Oh, aye, I know it'll be in Soon(TM). But Afforess' last version was fine enough to sustain the Carian Federation (read: renamed Greece) for now, even if the difficulty remains a bit low.

    Incidentally, and at the risk of stretching it a bit, might this gradual obsoletion be a possible for some of the other, larger things? I don't have anything in particular in mind at the moment, but if as elegant a solution as the one you present is possible, then it seems to me that it'd be a fair shot better than a lot of the clunky obsoletion mechanics currently in place.
     
  8. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Guys, for the n-th time, schools are working as they were designed in original AND, no changes were made that I'm aware of over the last 2 years. And they work as explained in Civilopedia, i.e. they make Monasteries obsolete so it's obvious that you lose science if you build them on top of monasteries. Just wait for monasteries to go obsolete on their own if you want to build schools.

    One thing we might do is to move monasteries obsolescence from Modern Physics to Compulsory Education so that they immediately go obsolete once schools are available. I think the reason obsolescence was pushed a bit further was not to leave a gap while monasteries become obsolete and schools aren't built yet. But if you want it that way it's an easy change.

    Or we can do it as Vokarya has described: is that ok for you to do it and include it in your modification Vokarya? (I'd prefer that way for sure).
     
  9. Combat Wombat

    Combat Wombat Warlord

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    I think the clear solution here is to have a way to make monasteries weaker for each one in a city or limit the number that can be built to like 3 per city.
     
  10. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Using Limited religion does what you have suggested on your last part. So there is an Option already available. I do not want an Imposed limit of 3 for the Multiple Religion Option. Already been down that rabbit trail in Caveman2Cosmos. :p

    JosEPh
     
  11. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    I agree with Joseph on this one. Vokarya's solution is the best one, but it will have to wait until we've added his changes.
     
  12. Vokarya

    Vokarya Deity

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    I proposed two things. Do you want me to do one or both of these:
    • Increase Schools to +20% :science:
    • Monasteries get -5% :science: somewhere in the Renaissance - I'm thinking Humanism.

    If we do both, then one School will be equivalent to four Monasteries. I would think it would be rare for one city to have more than that, but I could be wrong.

    Let me know what you want.
     
  13. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    I guess Monasteries getting -5% :science: somewhere in the Renaissance is an elegant solution. And I also agree on Humanism. :)
     
  14. E_Pluribus_Unum

    E_Pluribus_Unum Warlord

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    Hi!

    I vote for Education instead of Humanism.
     
  15. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Deity

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    Isn't that a bit too early? There are just a few techs between Meditation and Education, at least in the old tech tree (don't remember about the new one).
     

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