Please fix the Democracy ideology

[dagriggstar]

Fireside chats is a weird thing to be unlocking when you first get your ideology. Like it’s possible (probable) you have no broadcasting equipment when you get it ! I imagine some reference to a constitution being developed would work better ?

Other than that just kinda seems undercooked at the moment, like there isn’t enough choices. The fact you can be an authoritative democracy is very weird to me…..Like maybe that’s Singapore ?

 

[Zaarin]

Given the time period the Modern Age represents, I took "liberalism" and "progressivism" to mean Enlightenment Liberalism and turn-of-the-century Progressivism, not a commentary on modern American political discourse.

 

[Black Gate]

One of the core tenets of strong democracies is a strong legal system. The lack of such (and the associated corruption) tends to be common in weak democracies. Feels a little weird to not have that represented.

On top of that I'd say an important ideology of democracies has been various forms of free market capitalism, which also works in opposition to the state lead ideologies of the other two options. I guess that's being modelled by "liberalism" in a generic way to refer to things beyond the economic model.

 

[Krikkit1]

Seems they are cooking up a stinker with ideology and government types in general with Civ 7. Decoupling ideology from gov type is just senseless. So you can unlock the communist ideology tree but be a monarchy? Civ 5 did it better.

I think some do require a bit of stretching…but no IRL “communist” state followed Marx’s complete plan…you could easily have a monarch having a total command economy with the “bureaucracy” made up of workers councils. (see below for NK example)

And an Authoritarian democracy is easy…you just need a really popular leader who removes the barriers to their power…and whose people are able to support their militarism.*

ie an Authoritarian democracy is a weak one as stated above…their government celebrations and ideology social policies don’t support each other

 

[gdr_willter]

Seems they are cooking up a stinker with ideology and government types in general with Civ 7. Decoupling ideology from gov type is just senseless. So you can unlock the communist ideology tree but be a monarchy? Civ 5 did it better.

Meanwhile, in North Korea...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Given the time period the Modern Age represents, I took "liberalism" and "progressivism" to mean Enlightenment Liberalism and turn-of-the-century Progressivism, not a commentary on modern American political discourse.

Not sure about that, considering two Progressivism policies are "New Deal" and "Their Finest Hour", which would include the 1930s up to WWII.

 

[Zaarin]

Not sure about that, considering two Progressivism policies are "New Deal" and "Their Finest Hour", which would include the 1930s up to WWII.

The New Deal postdates but grew out of the Progressive Era so I'm still not overly alarmed. Though if a mod renamed them, say, Temperance (or Suffrage) and I Want You, I'd download it...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The New Deal postdates but grew out of the Progressive Era so I'm still not overly alarmed. Though if a mod renamed them, say, Temperance (or Suffrage) and I Want You, I'd download it...

Pretty sure "Suffrage" was one of the first civics under Democracy at the beginning.

 

[Zaarin]

Pretty sure "Suffrage" was one of the first civics under Democracy at the beginning.

Then Temperance works perfectly. I admit the Ideology part of the video was not one I was scrutinizing most closely. In general I was paying less attention during the Modern Age stream because this is my least favorite part of the game anyway.

 

[Patine]

Then Temperance works perfectly. I admit the Ideology part of the video was not one I was scrutinizing most closely. In general I was paying less attention during the Modern Age stream because this is my least favorite part of the game anyway.

Is Temperance a feature of Democracy, or in spite of it? It's very often associated with Religious movements, as a rule.

 

[JNR13]

I got a bigger issue with a wonder production bonus unlocking three civics in. You need to get the three ideology civics, then the civics to unlock a given wonder. By then, whichever civ is associated with that wonder would've already built it. It's gonna be very hard to get into a situation where that policy is actually useful. Finishing your ideology should net a bigger reward. It seems very much focused on culture victory, giving more yields from Great Works and a defensive military policy, but nothing actually helps you win that victory faster. Further, Free Press reducing Science in cities is extremely weird. Free Press is essential for the proper circulation and discussion of academic ideas. Its focus on centralism is also quite odd.

 

[Zaarin]

Is Temperance a feature of Democracy, or in spite of it? It's very often associated with Religious movements, as a rule.

It's much more complicated than that. Temperance was closely tied to women's suffrage because, as a political issue tied to the domestic sphere, it was one of the earliest opportunities for women to have a strong voice in politics, and the temperance movement was spearheaded by women (often the same women advocating for women's suffrage and, earlier, abolition). I chose Temperance and Suffrage as two of the biggest social reform movements of the Progressive era. And yes, there was a religious element to all of the social reform movements of the era; denominations like the Wesleyans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Catholics were very active in social reform. I don't think that's a particularly relevant detail to the present discussion, though.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Further, Free Press reducing Science in cities is extremely weird. Free Press is essential for the proper circulation and discussion of academic ideas. Its focus on centralism is also quite odd.

If Communism=science, in the game, then I guess Free Press civic is supposed to be represent going against Communist censorship by reducing science?
I agree it's a weird way to go about it.

 

[Krikkit1]

Is Temperance a feature of Democracy, or in spite of it? It's very often associated with Religious movements, as a rule.

Feature…it was democratically pushed through (as an attempted solution to real social problems) and highly connected to the expansion of suffrage in the US.

 

[Krikkit1]

If Communism=science, in the game, then I guess Free Press civic is supposed to be represent going against Communist censorship by reducing science?
I agree it's a weird way to go about it.

Looking at them more in detail

Free Press+Welfare state
Culture and Happiness in Towns at the expense of production and science in Cities

Fireside chats and Suffrage
Culture and Happiness from Specialists at the expense of gold and production in Towns

They aren’t saying bad for science…it’s bad for City science.

Democracy starts out with city favoring policies
Liberalism gives town favoring policies
Progressivism gives bonuses wo penalties (military, Wonder, or great work)

 

[TheGhostEnthusiast]

Fireside chats is a weird thing to be unlocking when you first get your ideology. Like it’s possible (probable) you have no broadcasting equipment when you get it ! I imagine some reference to a constitution being developed would work better ?

I think it's a nice idea, commitment to Democracy leading to open conversation between the leader and the people. If I ever unlock it before Radio, I'll imagine it as a column in the newspaper or something.

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

In Australia the main centre right party is called The Liberal Party.
- As they allegedly support minimal state interference in business.
-Historically we refer to them as ‘wet’ or ‘dry’ liberals.
-Wet liberals are economically conservative and socially progressive.
-Dry liberals are generally conservative on both accounts.

As other have noted across the west, contemporary right parties have moved away from this, most ‘wet liberals’ in Australia have been pushed out the main right party, tend to run as independents.

 

[bbbt]

It's extremely unfortunate that Democracy is only representative of the political Left.
...
Either the names of the civics and traditions could be changed to represent the common ground held by most in America and the West, or a fourth Ideology could be added to represent Conservatism.
The latter would be my personal preference.

Creating a fourth 'Conservatism' ideology that's separate from democracy? Are you sure you thought the implications of that one through completely? I'm not sure "Conservatives no longer follow democracy" is exactly a less contentious message for the game...

I'd agree with most that the terms are supposed to be representative of more classical idea of Liberalism/Progressivism. Basically Firaxis has used WWII era as their model for ideologies/government for like 3 games now (ie "New Deal" and "Their Finest Hour" in 5, 6, 7). That's their model, not modern American politics. It's not like they've added "LGBT rights" or something under Progressivism.

Having said all that, the ideologies don't make a ton of sense to me with the existence of modern governments. Like what is 'elective republic' supposed to represent if it can be combined with fascism or communism?

It would make more sense to make them economic ideologies imho - ie Capitalism (free market), Marxism, ancd Command Economy or something like that.

 

[TheGhostEnthusiast]

Having said all that, the ideologies don't make a ton of sense to me with the existence of modern governments. Like what is 'elective republic' supposed to represent if it can be combined with fascism or communism?

I think the idea of an "elective republic" can quite reasonably be combined with communist and fascist characteristics for the purposes of the game. It could represent something like a more powerful soviet system, or officials "elected" by a dictator or group of elites (think the Romans, or some of Alexander Hamilton's proposals.) It could even be as simple as a system built like a modern Democracy in which the population consistently puts candidates in power who use those policies and aesthetics but aren't willing to remove the voting system because people like it and it hasn't hurt their cause.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think it's a nice idea, commitment to Democracy leading to open conversation between the leader and the people. If I ever unlock it before Radio, I'll imagine it as a column in the newspaper or something.

I mean Wilhelmina's Radio Oranje in Civ 6 stared with the creation of their first trade route, so yeah that's reasonable.