Poland Tradition/Piety Opening (Deity)

[Aaron90495]

I'm gonna try to get my first ever Cultural Victory on Deity and figured Poland would be a good civ to start with. I'm aware of Poland's hybrid Tradition/Liberty opening, but I'd really like to figure out how to do a Tradition/Piety opening, as I think it could/would be better for a Cultural Victory. Here's what I've considered:

Although Sacred Sites is decently powerful, the most Tourism I would get from it would be 16 (assuming I go 4 cities or fewer, which is ideal for Poland, I would think). As such, I think the ideal Reformation Belief would be Jesuit Education, primarily due to the massive amount of buildings required for CV's. Cutting down the production you need, along with getting the buildings up a little faster, is great. Beyond that, I need to figure out policy order. Possibilities:

-Full Piety, then full Tradition. I think this one may actually be the best, as if I want Jesuit Education, I need to Reform very quickly. I could probably pop Reformation with the Classical policy. By completely finishing Piety and spreading with the free Prophet, I could get religion rolling VERY quickly.

-Full Piety minus Theocracy (25% gold from temples), then full Tradition, then finish Piety with Theocracy for the Great Prophet. This also might be a good option, as you get your Tradition aqueducts and growth a little quicker, plus you get the Great Prophet when the cost for another would be quite high.

-Tradition opener, full Piety (maybe minus Theocracy), finish Tradition (then possibly finish Piety with Theocracy). I don't think this option would be particularly effective, as I'm pretty sure the Tradition opener would just slow down getting to Reformation, and that might cause me to lose Jesuit Education, which is like half the reason for going Piety.

What do you guys think is the best option? And what else should I try to do to win culturally with Poland?

 

[slowcar]

Post-Fall-Patch Deity AI seems to be even more insane religion-wise. In my last game i found pottery in a ruin turn 2, immediately built a shrine and got a pantheon with 40 faith.
the first religion was founded t43, the second t45, third t47.

Trying to get a religion is fine, but basing a deity strategy on it, inclusing all social policies? quite a risk...

 

[Stone_Age]

I used to be guaranteed a pantheon even with a late shrine, but I've lost out on pantheons in half of my games with the new patch. I'm even considering prioritizing the shrine later in my deity games.

 

[Cromagnus]

I used to be guaranteed a pantheon even with a late shrine, but I've lost out on pantheons in half of my games with the new patch. I'm even considering prioritizing the shrine later in my deity games.

Yeah, I rarely get a pantheon anymore if I don't build a shrine right after my first scout. Which I will only do if I see a chance to *really* benefit from an awesome pantheon.

So, I've been playing a lot of games without religion lately.

This was a change that definitely hurts Deity players the most. Combined with the AI's better settling code, (they go after faith NW hard now) they're going to get the good pantheons faster.

 

[Deau]

Post-Fall-Patch Deity AI seems to be even more insane religion-wise. In my last game i found pottery in a ruin turn 2, immediately built a shrine and got a pantheon with 40 faith.
the first religion was founded t43, the second t45, third t47.

Trying to get a religion is fine, but basing a deity strategy on it, inclusing all social policies? quite a risk...

A single game is a bad indicator -_-. I got first pantheon in my T249 OCC CV the last 2 nights and the first religion (although only 2nd to enhance) with DF/divine inspiration/pilgrimage

 

[Deau]

Piety is an alright way to offset missing a couple key wonders but it is still far more important to target science and thus growth above everything. Even above faith. If you plant 5 GP total, you can get around 120 end game TPT from it (if capital w/ NVC works the 5 tiles). However, you need to reach the target faith before industrial era as late game GS/GE/GMu are significantly more important than settling a late GP and piety is not even remotely close to being enough to sustain this much early game faith. That is, you are still very relying on a strong faith pantheon to achieve enough pre industrial faith to make the tree worthwhile for TPT.

I really believe there is more in scholasticism or mercantilism to help leverage a CV more than full piety. The only real value in piety hybrid opener is if it's your only way to a 5th religion so that you can get something like DI/RC capital-centric beliefs and enact your religion in the late game.

 

[Deau]

My bad, posted in the wrong tab/thread. This was meant for korea occ thread. I'll leave the save below in case someone wants to see godly occ map.

Mods if you delete my post, please don't delete the attachment as I used the same attachment ID in the appropriate thread as we can't link the same file twice on the forums.

 

[casualplayer]

If you're dead set on Tradition/Piety Poland CV I would open Tradition, blow through Piety and then go back to Tradition for free Opera Houses and Aquaducts. Poland can cook through two SP trees quite handily if you get Oracle, ally a Cultural City-State or use a Great Writer. Poland is insanely good.

 

[Deau]

If you're dead set on Tradition/Piety Poland CV I would open Tradition, blow through Piety and then go back to Tradition for free Opera Houses and Aquaducts. Poland can cook through two SP trees quite handily if you get Oracle, ally a Cultural City-State or use a Great Writer. Poland is insanely good.

You need monarchy earlier to sustain happiness in the early game. Also, significantly delaying trad is very prohibitive of growth (esp capital growth) so unless all 4 cities have extremely good location, this will be brutal on science.

A more typical approach, unless your entire strategy is reformation belief-centric (which, really, it shouldn't) is to go trad 1 or 2, piety 2 (opener, +1 faith from buildings), clean trad and then take the 20% cost reduction. This should line up around when you can start to spam purchase missionaries to spread yourself out.


One of the greatest strengths of Trad centric rather than hybrid openers with Poland is that you can get aqueducts out as much as 30 turns earlier than other civs. This is extremely powerful if you can manage the happiness properly.

 

[Aaron90495]

You need monarchy earlier to sustain happiness in the early game. Also, significantly delaying trad is very prohibitive of growth (esp capital growth) so unless all 4 cities have extremely good location, this will be brutal on science. A more typical approach, unless your entire strategy is reformation belief-centric (which, really, it shouldn't) is to go trad 1 or 2, piety 2 (opener, +1 faith from buildings), clean trad and then take the 20% cost reduction. This should line up around when you can start to spam purchase missionaries to spread yourself out. One of the greatest strengths of Trad centric rather than hybrid openers with Poland is that you can get aqueducts out as much as 30 turns earlier than other civs. This is extremely powerful if you can manage the happiness properly.

This is a really good point. My strategy isn't incredibly Reformation centric, so I think you're correct; it's probably better to just put a few into Piety to help get a good religion, then finish Tradition ASAP, then pick up one of the lesser Reformation Beliefs, as there's still probably gonna be a few good ones left.

What would you suggest as policy choice after that? Aesthetics-Rationalism-Ideology (probably Freedom, but maybe Order)?

 

[tommynt]

religion at deity is just super land dependant. So a general religion stategy is impossible imo.

With some faith wonder or f.e.stonecricles u can get enough faith to get things rolling - without the peity policies help shiiiiit if u dont go liberty and city spam.

Piety helps really ONLY very wide empires and without free settler/settler boost I dont see wide empires possible.

 

[casualplayer]

You need monarchy earlier to sustain happiness in the early game. Also, significantly delaying trad is very prohibitive of growth (esp capital growth) so unless all 4 cities have extremely good location, this will be brutal on science.

A more typical approach, unless your entire strategy is reformation belief-centric (which, really, it shouldn't) is to go trad 1 or 2, piety 2 (opener, +1 faith from buildings), clean trad and then take the 20% cost reduction. This should line up around when you can start to spam purchase missionaries to spread yourself out.


One of the greatest strengths of Trad centric rather than hybrid openers with Poland is that you can get aqueducts out as much as 30 turns earlier than other civs. This is extremely powerful if you can manage the happiness properly.

That's sorta why I questioned if the OP was "dead set" on this tactic. I don't choose my tactics before I see the dirt I'm planting Settlers on.

Spending all this early game time on Shrines and Temples and Faith generation is a good way to build some tempting targets for invasion. But I still think the OP could sculpt his Piety-powered religion to compensate for the slowed Aquaducts and Monarchy-Happiness. That's the beauty of religion; it can be sculpted to compensate for where you are weak.

Even on Deity, Poland can reach Reformation in time to get one of the good options but you also want to finish the tree to get the Great Prophet and enhance your religion. The more you delay finishing Piety the worse it gets to have even gone into that tree at all.

 

[justanotherturn]

I dream of a piety tree with a great prophet sooner than the finisher, to allow the player to always get a religion if he want one (a the cost of putting some point in piety in early game SP)
And if you add the ability for a Great prophet to settle one or two city, it could make a nice religious based piety tree that could compare with trad / liberty as an opener for some civ / situation.

yeah i'm sad that they didnt do enough change in the SP for honor and piety

 

[JamesCivFan]

I dream of a piety tree with a great prophet sooner than the finisher, to allow the player to always get a religion if he want one (a the cost of putting some point in piety in early game SP)
And if you add the ability for a Great prophet to settle one or two city, it could make a nice religious based piety tree that could compare with trad / liberty as an opener for some civ / situation.

yeah i'm sad that they didnt do enough change in the SP for honor and piety

Wouldn't this get outta hand with AIs, though? If religions on Deity come on turn 40, what would happen with, let's say, the Celts on Deity if they pick Piety (and being AI controlled)? Scary...

 

[Cromagnus]

Well, not *ALL* AIs would take Piety, probably less than 5, so you'd probably still get a spot. However, it's a good point. If 2 AIs went Piety, and 3 got absurdly lucky with faith the way they often seem to, you might be *more* likely to miss out on a religion, if there were a policy in Piety that gave you a GP.

Right now, as it stands, I have given up on even getting a pantheon, let alone a religion, unless I go Scout -> Partial Monument until Pottery -> Shrine -> Finish Monument.

It's stupid. The only game out of my last 10 where I even got a pantheon, lucky scouting got me 2 faith CS, so I founded a pantheon first. I went for Stone Circles, and went for Masonry pretty much immediately, and STILL DIDN'T GET A RELIGION. Opening Piety would have helped, actually. Frankly, I'm content to go without a religion. But going without a pantheon? That's annoying. I don't understand why you can't get a pantheon after someone enhances?? What's the point of that rule?

 

[casualplayer]

Well, not *ALL* AIs would take Piety, probably less than 5, so you'd probably still get a spot. However, it's a good point. If 2 AIs went Piety, and 3 got absurdly lucky with faith the way they often seem to, you might be *more* likely to miss out on a religion, if there were a policy in Piety that gave you a GP.

Right now, as it stands, I have given up on even getting a pantheon, let alone a religion, unless I go Scout -> Partial Monument until Pottery -> Shrine -> Finish Monument.

It's stupid. The only game out of my last 10 where I even got a pantheon, lucky scouting got me 2 faith CS, so I founded a pantheon first. I went for Stone Circles, and went for Masonry pretty much immediately, and STILL DIDN'T GET A RELIGION. Opening Piety would have helped, actually. Frankly, I'm content to go without a religion. But going without a pantheon? That's annoying. I don't understand why you can't get a pantheon after someone enhances?? What's the point of that rule?

You can always found if you produce a Great Prophet, like with Hagia Sophia or finishing Piety. You just lose the ability to produce that 1st Great Prophet with the Faith counter accumulation if all the other religions have already been founded. Usually it's scraps for options but the AI hates Tithe so that's usually still on the board. Once you've founded it's business as usual. It's actually kind of nice to have a fat pool of Faith on board when you do finish HS then you one-two GP and can put together a religion that is coherent and reinforces itself.

 

[Cromagnus]

Yes, it is possible with Liberty that Hagia Sophia would still be on the board to build with a GE after someone has enhanced, and there could be one religion left. But that would still mean no pantheon. Also, is it really worth spending the GE for HS? I dunno, on Deity I have other concerns.

And there's no way I'm opening Piety and finishing it fast enough to get a religion through the finisher. Not on Deity. There's no culture in Piety, so you wouldn't finish before like turn 90 at best. And besides, opening full Piety on Deity is suicide.

 

[Browd]

Generally agree, but doesn't mean no pantheon. If you get a Great Prophet before founding a pantheon, you will be prompted to select a pantheon when you found your religion.

Note, however, that one change in BNW vs. G&K is that you must have a pantheon before you can take a GrPr with the Liberty finisher or Pisa. You can still get a GrPr with Hagia Sophia or the Piety finisher without a pantheon.

 

[Cromagnus]

Generally agree, but doesn't mean no pantheon. If you get a Great Prophet before founding a pantheon, you will be prompted to select a pantheon when you found your religion.

Note, however, that one change in BNW vs. G&K is that you must have a pantheon before you can take a GrPr with the Liberty finisher or Pisa. You can still get a GrPr with Hagia Sophia or the Piety finisher without a pantheon.

Ah, didn't know that. And I forgot that you can get a GrPr with the Liberty Finisher. That actually makes Liberty better for founding a religion on Deity than Piety, because Liberty is a safer opening. But, man, I'd be reluctant to use the free GP that way.

EDIT: And, usually by t80-90 when you finish Liberty, there are no religions left anyway on Deity. However, considering that there's more culture in Liberty, you're still more likely to get a Great Prophet in time with Liberty than with Piety.

Two of the more blatant issues with Deity are the Piety Finisher and the Hagia Sophia freebie. The Piety finisher comes too late to guarantee a religion, but only on Deity. It's a shame that you can invest 4 policies into Piety and still not get a religion. Similarly, if you beeline for Theology and go all out production on Hagia Sophia you *might* get a GrPr in time, but still probably won't, and you really can't afford to commit your production and tech this way on Deity anyway. You'd probably have to skip archers, settlers, and other key builds as well as animal husbandry/masonry.

Since both of those things seem designed as safety measures to ensure people who focus on religion actually get one, that stands out to me as an issue with the current way the devs make Deity difficult.

And there's actually an easy fix for this: Tweak the starting units that the AI gets. With a free scout, 2 extra melee units and the extra settler, they are way more likely to find a faith goodie hut, a faith CS and a faith wonder to settle next to. I've been playing around with this, and just getting rid of the free scout makes a huge difference. Without the scout, the AI still gets two shrines up *fast* because of the free techs and two cities, and they still discover a lot of goodie huts and CS quickly, so they're often generating 2 faith/turn as early as turn 10.

As a result, it's still challenging to get a religion, but the difference is that you're less likely to miss out on a pantheon. This also gives you just a tiny bit more breathing room. The AI doesn't forward settle on you quite as aggressively, because the scout is the unit that covers the most ground. They still build a scout immediately, as they seem coded to want 2 scouts, but the 4 extra turns of scouting they lose while building it and the extra turns of +1 faith they lose because of the slightly later shrine, are IMHO a perfect solution to some of the more obvious Deity issues.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not advocating that it be easy to get a religion on Deity, I just think they missed the mark on this one. And this slight tweak fixes a bunch of issues.