Policy Cards

[Krikkit1]

I just don't see why that makes the game better. I think it's kind of frustrating to lose settlement limit just because you advance the age. What strategic depth is added by doing this? You'd pretty much be forced to keep that memento slotted in forever, which reduces choice for no real reason. And the same is true if the Mongol and fealty bonuses become cards. It wouldn't really be a choice because losing settlement limit would almost always be the wrong answer.

If you can get some settlement increases another way you wouldn’t be forced to keep it.

And honestly that indicates something like Fealty (or the Mongol boost of 4 instead of the usual civ max of 2) shouldn’t be in the game in the first place.

Settlement Limits are too important to be something that you can game to be ridiculously high (Fealty+Mongol and double counting Memento+Xerxes+ Attributes+Wonder lets you start Exploration with 18 or Modern with 37) OR lose without noticing.

They need to remove double counting Memento+Leaders+ Attributes+Wonder
while keeping someone from dropping due to losing
-Civ specific (Mongols are the only one here)
-Suzerein (new)
-Legacies (Fealty)

Having both
A warning for when you will be over the settlement limit
and
A way to deal with it
(You could choose to release a conquered or unhappy settlement can be turned into a friendly City State that you could Suzerein…and integrate once your Limit went up…or just conquer once your Limit went up)

would be ideal.

 

[Calcifer]

I agree with Krikkit1 here. In my opinion Fealty would be good even if it didn’t carry over because it is available at the beginning of the age, but I could see the point of having it carry over to modern. On the other hand, bonuses from attributes/mementos/leaders/wonders being counted multiple times makes no sense at all and seems most likely a bug.

 

[Kwami]

But even if those things weren't double counted, you still wouldn't lose settlement limit when transitioning. You'd keep what you have.

max(current_limit, new_age_minimum)

If you're willing to keep a memento in two ages, then you should get +1 each time. You sacrificed a memento slot that could have been used for something else. And fealty should just be +2 once and that +2 should stay there. You sacrificed some other legacy bonuses to get it. And the Mongols get +2 more than the others instead of getting some other bonuses, so that +2 should stay. No double counting is needed, but taking away settlement limit would feel bad.

 

[Krikkit1]

But even if those things weren't double counted, you still wouldn't lose settlement limit when transitioning. You'd keep what you have.

max(current_limit, new_age_minimum)

If you're willing to keep a memento in two ages, then you should get +1 each time. You sacrificed a memento slot that could have been used for something else. And fealty should just be +2 once and that +2 should stay there. You sacrificed some other legacy bonuses to get it. And the Mongols get +2 more than the others instead of getting some other bonuses, so that +2 should stay. No double counting is needed, but taking away settlement limit would feel bad.

So +1 Settlement Limit in Military Attributes is +1 Attribute point each Era (but only if you have a lot of them already.. which the minimum does)?
Double counting means Xerxes alone gets 6 extra Settlement Limit by modern (but only if you play all 3 ages... you don't get that benefit if you have an advanced start game)

And if you choose to remove a Memento, then you should lose its benefit

They do need a different way to handle the Age transition, but it can't be "nothing gets lost/dialed back" or things blow up too fast.
They probably need to increase the rewards for things you had but lost

--each City in the previous Age should give a lump sum of Gold and increase the amount of Gold you can carry over (since it will get downgraded to a Town)
--each Unit in the previous Age should give a lump sum of Gold and increase the amount of Gold you can carry over (since it will become obsolete*) [they should just make is something like a flat 10 into Exploration and 15 to modern for free upgrades and remove the Teleport]
--each non-Ageless Building in the previous age should give a lump sum of its (non influence)yield equal to X% of its build cost (since it will lose its adjacencies/other benefits)
--each Policy Slot in the previous Age should give a lump sum of Happiness (since they are lost)
--each Trade Route in the previous age should give a lump sum of Influence and increase the amount of Influence you can carry over (since they will be lost)
--each Suzerein in the previous age should give a lump sum of Influence and increase the amount of Influence you can carry over (since they will be down graded to friendly IPs)
AND
--if your Settlements from the previous age are over the Limit for the new age you should have the option of Liberate as Friendly CS OR Keep (since you may not want to be as over the limit as you are)

*Instead of removing your units, They should make your units "obsolete" and allow 5 per age (10,15) Free Upgrades... the Free upgrades could be used for a free Infantry unit if you didn't have that many units. (Free upgrades could be restricted so Siege upgrades to Ranged.. to slow early conquest or Exploration Naval can't be upgraded...so you can still use them for a coastal force but they don't help the DL rush)

 

[Kwami]

And if you choose to remove a Memento, then you should lose its benefit

Why? That isn't true for a lot of other mementos. Do we need to remove attribute points if you remove a memento that gave you attribute points? Why should the settlement limit go away? You gave up a memento slot to get it. You get to keep it.

I'm not advocating for double counting anything, I'm only arguing that nothing should be taken away. If I end an age with a settlement limit of 10, then I had better still have at least 10 when I start the next age.

 

[Krikkit1]

Why? That isn't true for a lot of other mementos. Do we need to remove attribute points if you remove a memento that gave you attribute points? Why should the settlement limit go away? You gave up a memento slot to get it. You get to keep it.

I'm not advocating for double counting anything, I'm only arguing that nothing should be taken away. If I end an age with a settlement limit of 10, then I had better still have at least 10 when I start the next age.

If you lose the El Escorial, your Settlement Limit goes down.

If I have 7 Settlement Limit at the end of antiquity (6 from Aksum + 1 from Memento) and I keep the Memento, then I have 9 Settlement Limit starting Exploration
If I have 9 Settlement Limit at the end of antiquity (8 from Rome + 1 from Memento) and I keep the Memento, then I have 10 Settlement Limit starting Exploration

Same for an Attribute Point
If I have 7 Settlement Limit at the end of antiquity (6 from Aksum + 1 from Military Attribute point) then I have 9 Settlement Limit starting Exploration
If I have 9 Settlement Limit at the end of antiquity (8 from Rome + 1 from Military Attribute point) then I have 10 Settlement Limit starting Exploration

Its not just that it is double counted... its that it is double counted depending on how much I had last time. (it is double counted more if I had more)

If stuff wasn't double counted, there are only 4 ways you would have settlement Limit go down between Ages
1. You Choose to Remove a Settlement Limit Memento
2. Mongol
3. Fealty
4. Suzerien benefit

In all of those cases. having some abilities for a player to choose if they wanted to liberate some Towns to be extra friendly CSs (relationship 45) for easy Suzerein [possibly with a Influence ?and Gold?Happy lump sum bonus]
That could also be good if a player overshot their Settlement Limit last age (to achieve a Military Legacy or Eliminate Someone) and doesn't want to stay overshot as much.

 

[Kwami]

Maybe we're just talking past each other, but what you're writing doesn't seem to make sense in context of what I wrote.

I see it like this.

If I have 7 settlement limit at the end of antiquity (6 from Aksum + 1 from memento) and I unequip the memento, then I'm automatically bumped up to 8 as the minimum for the exploration age.
If I have 7 settlement limit at the end of antiquity (6 from Aksum + 1 from memento) and I keep the memento, then I have 9 starting exploration (8 minimum + 1 from using the memento again).

If I have 9 settlement limit at the end of antiquity (8 from Rome + 1 from memento) and I unequip the memento, then I still have 9 at the start of exploration (because 9 > min of 8).
If I have 9 settlement limit at the end of antiquity (8 from Rome + 1 from memento) and I keep the memento, then I have 10 at the start of exploration (9 + 1).

That's how I'd want it to work. At no time would I ever want to lose settlement limit for unequipping a memento. That bonus should be permanent, just like attribute points are. If I use the +1 scientific attribute point memento in antiquity and then unequip it for exploration, then I don't lose that attribute point. And if I keep it for exploration, then I get a second attribute point. That makes sense. I chose that memento twice and so I benefit twice. Same for settlement limit.

In the case of fealty, I chose that legacy bonus instead of some other legacy bonus. I get to keep it.

In the case of Mongolia, I got Mongolian bonuses instead of some other civilization's bonuses. I get to keep it.

In the case of the suzerain benefit, I chose that settlement limit increase instead of a different bonus. I get to keep it.

I'm not saying that I should get anything double counted here. I'm just saying that increases should be permanent if they're greater than the minimum settlement limit when starting the next age.

max(current_limit, new_minimum)

 

[Krikkit1]

Maybe we're just talking past each other, but what you're writing doesn't seem to make sense in context of what I wrote.

I see it like this.

If I have 7 settlement limit at the end of antiquity (6 from Aksum + 1 from memento) and I unequip the memento, then I'm automatically bumped up to 8 as the minimum for the exploration age.
If I have 7 settlement limit at the end of antiquity (6 from Aksum + 1 from memento) and I keep the memento, then I have 9 starting exploration (8 minimum + 1 from using the memento again).

If I have 9 settlement limit at the end of antiquity (8 from Rome + 1 from memento) and I unequip the memento, then I still have 9 at the start of exploration (because 9 > min of 8).
If I have 9 settlement limit at the end of antiquity (8 from Rome + 1 from memento) and I keep the memento, then I have 10 at the start of exploration (9 + 1).

That's how I'd want it to work. At no time would I ever want to lose settlement limit for unequipping a memento. That bonus should be permanent, just like attribute points are. If I use the +1 scientific attribute point memento in antiquity and then unequip it for exploration, then I don't lose that attribute point. And if I keep it for exploration, then I get a second attribute point. That makes sense. I chose that memento twice and so I benefit twice. Same for settlement limit.

That's because the attribute point ones give you something you spend... if you build then Hanging Gardens and it gets captured you don't lose the point because you spent it already.
if you build El Escorial and then lose it you lose the Settlement Limit boost.

(also technically those numbers for equipping the Memento should be 1 higher because it give +1 per age.. so 10 and 11)
and for something like a Military attribute Settlement Limit it also gets double/triple counted (although the free social Policy slot from Culture Attribute doesn't get multiple counted since they are reset to the same 1 each time)

In the case of fealty, I chose that legacy bonus instead of some other legacy bonus. I get to keep it.

In the case of Mongolia, I got Mongolian bonuses instead of some other civilization's bonuses. I get to keep it.

In the case of the suzerain benefit, I chose that settlement limit increase instead of a different bonus. I get to keep it.

I'm not saying that I should get anything double counted here. I'm just saying that increases should be permanent if they're greater than the minimum settlement limit when starting the next age.

max(current_limit, new_minimum)

If you chose the +Culture and Happiness on Wonders Legacy you lose it in Modern
If you chose the Normans you lose the free Social Policy Slot in Modern
If you chose the +War Support you lose it in Exploration/Modern


The game does need to reward players better for things they have built/achieved in an age... it should not reward them by letting them keep all of them in the same form.