Poll: If Firaxis Introduce Card Combat to Civ VII Will You Buy It?

[Krajzen]

I would see how it works before condemning it, it could potentially be fun (you combine unit cards, generals cars, tactics cards, culture and institutions cards into "decks" which are called armies). My main problem with this setup would be this abstracted, too arcadey feeling which was the plague of civ6, armies not having army vibe but some abstract card vibe. I already struggle with how in 1UPT you de facto don't have decisive battles of history, just myriads of skirmishes.

 

[blackbutterfly]

In any case, Midnight Suns is a deck builder.

Maligned Midnight Suns is NOT a deck builder.

A duck billed platypus, it has often been miscategorized.

2K+Firaxis are to blame.
They saw the genius of card combat and thought everyone would get it. The arrogance TBH

 

[AntSou]

There are games, and there are PC games (and board games, and deck-of-card games, etc, et al). Hearts, rummy or pontoon are with decks of cards. Risk is a board game. Monopoly is a board game with literal cards. A PC game could be any of the above, because all a PC game has to be is a game, on a PC (or console, or phone, etc)

There's a difference between cards as a game and cards as a convenient form to store information. Monopoly uses the latter. There's really nothing essentially card-gamey in its public decks, it's just a random effect that occurs when you step on a specific spot. You could roll a die and read the effect off a list.

You also have the lots (or whatever), which are cards because, well, what else could they be? It's a bit of paper which needs to be passed around.

When you translate Monopoly into digital form there's no longer any need to preserve these elements.

So there is such a thing as PC games and "card games", to some extent, because game design needs to contend with the limitations of its medium, and it wouldn't make sense to import specific limitations of board games into a PC game just for the sake of it.

So, again, what actual card game element can be applied to Civ combat which can't be achieved in some other, more effective way?

 

[AntSou]

Maligned Midnight Suns is NOT a deck builder.

A duck billed platypus, it has often been miscategorized.

2K+Firaxis are to blame.
They saw the genius of card combat and thought everyone would get it. The arrogance TBH

So, just to be clear, heroes do not have decks of cards and you're not supposed to build a deck of cards before combat?

 

[Gorbles]

There's a difference between cards as a game and cards as a convenient form to store information. Monopoly uses the latter. There's really nothing essentially card-gamey in its public decks, it's just a random effect that occurs when you step on a specific spot. You could roll a die and read the effect off a list.

You also have the lots (or whatever), which are cards because, well, what else could they be? It's a bit of paper which needs to be passed around.

When you translate Monopoly into digital form there's no longer any need to preserve these elements.

So there is such a thing as PC games and "card games", to some extent, because game design needs to contend with the limitations of its medium, and it wouldn't make sense to import specific limitations of board games into a PC game just for the sake of it.

So, again, what actual card game element can be applied to Civ combat which can't be achieved in some other, more effective way?

You could roll a die, but a die would need to be the same side as cards in the Chance or Community Chest piles (I think it's 30?). And then you have to contrast simulated (or real) dice-rolling against shuffling and cutting cards. It's easy to boil it down to "randomness" and this is getting a bit off-topic, but both are distinct systems that people interact with different, non-aesthetic ways.

I also think you're mistaking me for someone who said card combat (or even non-aesthetic card gameplay systems generally) would make sense in Civ. I didn't say that, and I thought my post was pretty clear

 

[blackbutterfly]

So, just to be clear, heroes do not have decks of cards and you're not supposed to build a deck of cards before combat?

Nope

Would you "build" a deck in Poker?

TBH though it's not your fault for thinking so.
Almost any YouTube on Midnight Suns will be to build decks for heroes.

Think Batman.
He goes on a mission and equips himself with what he needs for that mission.

That's what you should be doing in Midnight Suns...not deck building. Static. Wrong.

Unfortunately for Midnight Suns (and Firaxis+2K) the majority of players aren't playing the game how it was designed. (Fault of designers/studio - Firaxis).
As a result, it kinda flopped (in terms of $$$).

 

[AntSou]

Almost any YouTube on Midnight Suns will be to build decks for heroes.

I don't get what you are saying. "Almost any" youtube video is about building decks for heroes, but the game isn't about deckbuilding?

Would you "build" a deck in Poker?

No, there's no deck building in poker, you get a random hand.

 

[Kwami]

Midnight Suns is only superficially a deck builder.

We're talking about "decks" of eight cards with restrictions on how many cards can be Attacks, Skills, or Heroics. And while the cards are important, they aren't really the main focus of the game. The game itself is an RPG that just happens to use cards in combat. In that sense, it's much more like early PlayStation Portable (PSP) games than it is like other deck builders.

The cards are more like equipment. How many grenades are you taking into combat? How many medical packs? Do you want the grenade launcher for this mission? They just turned those items into cards for aesthetic reasons and because special skills like Hulk Smash are hard to represent as physical items.

 

[tedhebert]

Nope

Would you "build" a deck in Poker?

TBH though it's not your fault for thinking so.
Almost any YouTube on Midnight Suns will be to build decks for heroes.

Think Batman.
He goes on a mission and equips himself with what he needs for that mission.

That's what you should be doing in Midnight Suns...not deck building. Static. Wrong.

Unfortunately for Midnight Suns (and Firaxis+2K) the majority of players aren't playing the game how it was designed. (Fault of designers/studio - Firaxis).
As a result, it kinda flopped (in terms of $$$).

I strongly disagree… a big part of every game « day » in MS is directly related to getting better combat card, enhancing your current combat cards and adding bonuses to them.

So it certainly IS a deckbuilder and remains so until the very end of the 4 dlcs….

 

[pokiehl]

I want to add that I think questions like this have false premises.

A lot of people here talk like they draw red lines in the sand and if Civ does this one single thing they don’t like, they’re not buying it and Firaxis won’t get their money ever.

I think it’s some way to try to exercise control or influence over the devs they think who are reading their posts, but that’s kind of silly because by now most of the gameplay stuff is surely locked in.

So while I really would not want card combat in Civ, I can’t say that will singularly stop me from buying the game. Maybe the implementation would actually be good. Maybe other stuff in the game would make up for it.

Claiming any singular thing will stop you from buying the game gives me big “let me speak to your manager” vibes.

 

[blackbutterfly]

I don't get what you are saying. "Almost any" youtube video is about building decks for heroes, but the game isn't about deckbuilding?

No.

You can deck build.
And sadly the vast majority of players do

Jake Solomon (lead designer) said Midnight Suns is "not a forever game" (like Diablo):
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/wh...ever-be-forever-games-like-diablo-and-destiny

Firaxis designed the game to be played RPG style...I speedrun and even this (least grind) way does not require building decks even on the highest difficulty.
It is a minority opinion, but Midnight Suns is not in principle a deck builder. It's a tactical strategy game.

Think XCOM with card play/combat.

Re: Civ ?
What Firaxis need to absolutely 100% make sure that if and when they do introduce Card Combat to Civ, nobody starts building out decks for Warriors, Archers, etc.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

If Firaxis introduce Card Combat to Civ VII (first seen in Firaxis' other game Marvel's Midnight Suns) will you still buy it?

For me, it would depend on the implementation. If it was like Midnight Suns, I would pass. I don't think comic book style card combat belongs in civ. And I do not want deck building. But the concept of playing special ability "cards" to activate certain abilities in combat could work if done right. For example, I could see a tactical combat screen where you line up your units and select certain actions like "frontal assault", "flanking maneuver", "stand your ground" or "withdraw" to direct the battle. I would be cautious and want to see some gameplay to see it in action to decide if it was a deal breaker or not.

 

[blackbutterfly]

I strongly disagree… a big part of every game « day » in MS is directly related to getting better combat card, enhancing your current combat cards and adding bonuses to them.

So it certainly IS a deckbuilder and remains so until the very end of the 4 dlcs….

Agree to disagree.

For me Midnight Suns is Tactical Strategy first and foremost.
IMO players who are actively deck building are playing the game wrong.

In a playthrough, if you just play the cards (and mods) you are rolled (without deck building according to some YouTube) it is infinitely more replayable.
I've enjoyed 2000+ hrs (speedrunning) and every run is different. (B'cos I didn't grind out decks).

 

[TreVor_ish]

Claiming any singular thing will stop you from buying the game gives me big “let me speak to your manager” vibes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but usually one calls a manager when one's service or product that was already paid for is not up to standard specified before said purchase was done, so in this instance not really a good comparison.
Every game has more and less important gameplay mechanics (so to speak).
I think combat in a 4x game is one of those more important parts - at least for me.
So, as I'm old fashioned and like to vote with my wallet after getting enough information to the point I feel content - if said combat mechanic in a Civilzation game would be diminished (so to speak) to a card play, it is definitely something that would sway me to not make a purchase.
Off course this is all just a speculation about how one spends time/money in entertainment and every one values things differently.

 

[criZp]

Please let PC games be PC games and card games be card games. The policy cards of Civ6 was bad enough. That would definitely be a hard pass for me.

Exactly, I play for immersion and card stuff just ruins it.

 

[AntSou]

@blackbutterfly ok, maybe I wasnt clear. I understand the game isn't mainly a deckbuilder, but the thread wasn't about the game, it's about the combat.

I don't even see the point of bringing up the game, though I did say _"Midnight Suns is..."_, so maybe that's my fault.

In any case, it makes no sense to suggest "you can deckbuild but you don’t have too, therefore it isn't deckbuilding". Most deckbuilding games I've played, excluding roguelikes, have default Decks. And aren't you forced to pick some cards over others in Midnight Suns ocasionally, like roguelikes do? Making deckbuilding literally unavoidable?

Also, saying players are "playing the game wrong" and "you can deck build and sadly the bast majority of gamers do" is some high level gatekeeping.

 

[Connor_CivFan]

A lot of people here talk like they draw red lines in the sand and if Civ does this one single thing they don’t like, they’re not buying it and Firaxis won’t get their money ever.
I think it’s some way to try to exercise control or influence over the devs they think who are reading their posts, but that’s kind of silly because by now most of the gameplay stuff is surely locked in.
So while I really would not want card combat in Civ, I can’t say that will singularly stop me from buying the game.
Claiming any singular thing will stop you from buying the game gives me big “let me speak to your manager” vibes.

People are allowed to think that certain mechanics would completely ruin a game.
Card-based combat is something that many people would find a deal breaker in a game like civ because it goes against what civ is, that is a fair assessment.
Ultimately its down to personal opinion, but changing the combat so dramatically that it affects how civ would be styled, run and played is something that would be a deal breaker for many

 

[AntSou]

I have tried to think about how cards would work in Civ Combat and this is the best I could come up with:

Units are attached to Generals in some way. Generals have small decks of cards from where you draw possible actions. Leveling Up your Generals gets you better cards, and unique generals have unique cards in their decks. You also have basic actions you can perform regardless of cards.

Meh.

 

[UWHabs]

I have tried to think about how cards would work in Civ Combat and this is the best I could come up with:

Units are attached to Generals in some way. Generals have small decks of cards from where you draw possible actions. Leveling Up your Generals gets you better cards, and unique generals have unique cards in their decks. You also have basic actions you can perform regardless of cards.

Meh.

I mean, it sort of sounds like an alternate promotion/Great General system. Like instead of a badge on the unit panel if promotions for units were "cards" that sort of sounds like what is being suggested.

Which, I mean, just seems like a UI thing? In general cards are thought of being more flexible, so it would be like if you take your catapult with one promotion, maybe bring it back to an encampment, and had a "change promotion" option if you wanted to swap it out to something.

But for the rest of the game, I think at the scale you have in civ, card mechanics don't really make sense. Units only have one action a turn, it feels like somewhat needless complications if you suddenly changed catapults to have like 4 actions and had to equip which type of attacks they could do, etc... For civ, it just feels like if you want a unit to have multiple actions, just give it the option to have multiple actions, and let you choose freely. I don't really see a point to like building out a deck or swapping in cards to limit you in what you can do.

 

[AntSou]

@UWHabs Having to wait for the proper card in order to be able to do a cavalry flank or bombard a city with your catapult would probably feel very frustrating.