PolyCast Episode 114: "Never Hear the End of It"

[DanQ]

Complaints and compliments all piling up. The one-hundred-and-fourteenth episode of PolyCast, "Never Hear The the End of It", features regular co-hosts Daniel "DanQ" Quick, "Makahlua", Philip "TheMeInTeam" Bellew and Lisa "qnl" Bang with first-time guest co-host "Bibor"; it has a runtime of 59m59s.

The summary of topics is as follows:

- 02m21s | Forum Talk
On initial impressions of the Civilization V 1.0.1.217 patch.
- 46m45s | Senate
Considering the top Unique Units in CivV's Ancient, Classical and Medieval Eras sans those found in paid-for Downloadable Content (DLC).

- Intro/Outro | Miscellaneous
Hate mail for co-host and show confusion, unconditional love and on and around Civilization V receiving the British Academy of Film and Television Arts' 2011 Gaming award.

PolyCast is a bi-weekly audio production in an ongoing effort to give the Civ community an interactive voice on game strategy; sibling show RevCast focuses on Civilization: Revolution and ModCast focuses on Civ modding.

 

[blac]

Sweet, I love Bibor's videos. I see him on almost every thread, I knew it would just a matter of time before he was on polycast!!

Downloading right now!

 

[DanQ]

Sweet, I love Bibor's videos. I see him on almost every thread, I knew it would just a matter of time before he was on polycast!!

Downloading right now!

Hope you enjoy.

Further feedback welcome.

 

[blac]

I really enjoyed the debates going on about the best UUs by era, I think more intense discusses make for a more interesting show. I also think Bibor offered some really good insight, especially on the fact that civ V wasn't built as a multi-player game. I never really thought of it like that. Congrats on one of the better episodes I've heard in a while.

 

[Civ4Brains]

more BIBOR! (nothing more pleasurable than a simple rhyme)

whilst there are a lot of detractors to Civ5 I do believe it is important for polycast to have someone like Bibor talking about his positive experiences playing the latest iteration.

His LP's on youtube (come on Izzy part2/2!) demonstrate how easy it is to enjoy Civ5 as long as you don't get too bogged down in all its glorious flaws. Yes we all wish the game had turned out far far better than it currently is but I find it far more refreshing to watch gameplay, read posts etc. that can just deal and move on.

Bibor, u the

 

[DanQ]

I really enjoyed the debates going on about the best UUs by era, I think more intense discusses make for a more interesting show.

; combining that with relevant support for positions and constructive disagreement makes it well rounded. I believe this to be the most in-depth and comprehensive "Top" list discussion on the show to date.

Congrats on one of the better episodes I've heard in a while.

I also think Bibor offered some really good insight, especially on the fact that civ V wasn't built as a multi-player game. I never really thought of it like that.

more BIBOR! [..] whilst there are a lot of detractors to Civ5 I do believe it is important for polycast to have someone like Bibor talking about his positive experiences playing the latest iteration.

I'm certain that schedules permitting, Bibor will make a return appearance at some point in PolyCast's future. (MadDjinn, the other person's CivV "Let's Play" videos that you link to in your signature, was a guest on Episode 107 last year).

Out of curiosity are you a new, occasional or regular listener to the show Civ4Brains?

 

[MadDjinn]

looooll...

Phil: Early game - 100-150 turns
- Early game is to turn 70ish. By that point, if you're not doing a lot (other than special turns that are basically bridge turns to something happening) then you're doing something wrong.

The core MP issues is more about the networking, rather than the balance; at least right now. I agree though, Civ 5, like all Civ's to date, was made for SP.

MP Balance factors are likely needed, but after we can get MP working effectively enough for sufficient play time to occur so that we can see the balance issues. (balance issues != end turn issues.)

Land based ranged units >> Navy units.

The AI has a tendency to mass assault AA units with fighters/bombers. Very odd most times.

Tactics with fighters/bombers:
- Fighters on attack w bombers: Air Sweep to clear all AA help before sending in bombers.

Defense - if the enemy has Air units, set a few fighters for CAP so that they intercept the attacks.

top UU lists:
Ancient -
- Immortals are way better than Jag warriors though. Double healing and 8 base CS is strong.
- Then Bab Archers, for this era.
- Jag Warrior jungle bonus - menh. pretty sucky. Healing 2 HP per kill, nice.
- Hoplite only ok for a short period. Their only advantage is that they have a high base attack. Nothing upgrades, which makes them worse.
(both chariots follow this)

You also missed the Incan Slinger, which is mainly decent for it's dodge feature; which upgrades.

Classical -
Dans list pretty much. Ballistas are a strong way to deal with cities early game and not have to worry about upgrades to Trebs.

Medieval -
WTH???? DAN is nuts!!! Siam's elephants at the bottom? Those things are EVIL!!

1 - Keshiks - evil slaughter fest
2 - Siam's elephants - 22 base CS... makes it worth being a knight! (plus some other stuff)
3 - CKN - twin attacks? yes please.
4 - Arabian Knights - better than a crossbow and can move faster.
5 - Longbows
6 - Landsknect - given GS from Meritocracy, it's more about fighting Classical units. 1/2 cost = twice as effective due to twice as many. (flanking/surrounds)
7+ whatever else was there.

 

[DanQ]

Hey MadDjinn.

The core MP issues is more about the networking, rather than the balance; at least right now. I agree though, Civ 5, like all Civ's to date, was made for SP.

MP Balance factors are likely needed, but after we can get MP working effectively enough for sufficient play time to occur so that we can see the balance issues. (balance issues != end turn issues.)

End turn issues are a concern, but indeed I too am do not focus on it as the first and foremost concern for CivV MP at present.

You also missed the Incan Slinger, which is mainly decent for it's dodge feature; which upgrades.

As noted in the episode, we excluded pay-for DLC.

Medieval -
WTH???? DAN is nuts!!!

Classical -
Dans list pretty much.

 

[Camikaze]

Very good episode. Really good discussion (particularly between TMIT and Bibor on UUs). I'm hoping that the Medieval era and further eras will be returned to in a future recording.

 

[Civ4Brains]

I'm certain that schedules permitting, Bibor will make a return appearance at some point in PolyCast's future. (MadDjinn, the other person's CivV "Let's Play" videos that you link to in your signature, was a guest on Episode 107 last year).

Out of curiosity are you a new, occasional or regular listener to the show Civ4Brains?

Newish (4/5? months), I guess. so I should probably clarify...

I didn't mean to suggest/imply that polycast does not give fair and/or due representation to CiV [and it's positive aspects] - from the cast's I have listened to the team's experience of CiV has been treated with respect and equanimity. It's just I find Bibor's attitude regarding CiV (in the podcast, his post's and LP's) particularly refreshing, in light/spite of how easy it seems to be for some to virtually hate the game.

 

[snarzberry]

looooll...


1 - Keshiks - evil slaughter fest
2 - Siam's elephants - 22 base CS... makes it worth being a knight! (plus some other stuff)
3 - CKN - twin attacks? yes please.
4 - Arabian Knights - better than a crossbow and can move faster.
5 - Longbows
6 - Landsknect

I, too, was surprised to see that the Keshik wasn't the top rated unit in it's age as I'd peg it as the outright best overall unit in the game! They are evil good. My list would be the same as yours but with CKN and Elephants swapped. Glad to see you rate the Camel Archer highly as I also value that unit. The ability to move after attacking is just so strong.

I was scratching my head at the rating of the Longbow as top dog. It's a great unit, but it is up against stiff competition.

 

[DanQ]

Very good episode. Really good discussion

I'm hoping that the Medieval era and further eras will be returned to in a future recording.

That is definitely the intent, and in the near future.

Newish (4/5? months), I guess.

Ah 'k -- welcome, newish listener. How did you come across PolyCast?

I didn't mean to suggest/imply that polycast does not give fair and/or due representation to CiV [and it's positive aspects] - from the cast's I have listened to the team's experience of CiV has been treated with respect and equanimity. It's just I find Bibor's attitude regarding CiV (in the podcast, his post's and LP's) particularly refreshing, in light/spite of how easy it seems to be for some to virtually hate the game.

The implication you reference did not come across to me, but I appreciate the clarification nonetheless. Thank you for the kind words on our balancing of perspectives on CivV since its release.

I was scratching my head at the rating of the Longbow as top dog. It's a great unit, but it is up against stiff competition.

And there lies-in a solid basis for discussion and debate.

As with C4B, are you a new, occasional or regular listener to the show?

 

[MadDjinn]

Hey MadDjinn.

Yeah... I'll your 'murder bows' with my Camel Archers any day.

Good thing I'm around for the next recording

 

[MadDjinn]

I, too, was surprised to see that the Keshik wasn't the top rated unit in it's age as I'd peg it as the outright best overall unit in the game! They are evil good. My list would be the same as yours but with CKN and Elephants swapped. Glad to see you rate the Camel Archer highly as I also value that unit. The ability to move after attacking is just so strong.

yeah, I'm recording a game right now as Arabia and am defending in an early war (didn't start this one!)

cycling 3 Camel Archers every turn to the AI melee units close to my city (and therefore none of my units get hurt) while waiting for backup is not something most can do. (Keshiks excluded of course)

 

[DanQ]

Yeah... I'll your 'murder bows' with my Camel Archers any day.

Sure, anything's possible. If I'm feeling particularly unlucky even, I can thwart this as a possibility by making sure I don't play as the English and/or you don't play as the Arabians.

 

[MadDjinn]

Sure, anything's possible. If I'm feeling particularly unlucky even, I can thwart this as a possibility by making sure I don't play as the English and/or you don't play as the Arabians.

now that's strategy

 

[Rusty Edge]

I put the longbows and chineese crossbows ( whatever they're called ) as two of the top 3, which is how you ranked them.

My thinking is that instead of the usual two row battle formation, with longbows you can add a third rank. In the case of Chi-bows, you get two attacks, something like an extra rank. My favorite advantage of the longbow is to be able to shoot before the enemy can shoot back. They don't suffer city attack penalties and they don't need resources to build. If I have to plan an army around one unit, I'll take these guys in their era. Spam 'em and slam 'em into the enemy!

 

[b.orchid]

Good job guys, this was a really enjoyable podcast to listen to. Bibor was a great guest co-host hope he comes on again! Lists are always a great way of ensuring some debate.

Quick question - I hear many of the hosts say often that your games don't get to the modern era. What year do your games normally end and what victory conditions do you normally go for? I'm curious as I'm always trying to go for the earliest possible victory so I get a higher score, but it's usually not until the early 1900's that it all seems to eventually come together. How early do you need to decide on the victory condition you are going for to aim for a win prior to the modern era?

Oh and Dan, was that your croaky voice at the end announcing the record date? If so i hope you feel better

 

[DanQ]

I put the longbows and chineese crossbows ( whatever they're called ) as two of the top 3, which is how you ranked them.

Good job guys, this was a really enjoyable podcast to listen to.

Bibor was a great guest co-host hope he comes on again! Lists are always a great way of ensuring some debate.

Quick question - I hear many of the hosts say often that your games don't get to the modern era. What year do your games normally end and what victory conditions do you normally go for?

Hmmm... the "end" of most of my CivV games occurs before the end of the Renaissance Era, whatever year/turn that happens to be. I purposefully say "end" as it is not a formal end within the game, but rather in deference to my analysis of either 'yea' or 'nay' towards the probable or at least most reasonable expectation of conclusion.

As for Victory condition, that's easy -- Domination.

I'm curious as I'm always trying to go for the earliest possible victory so I get a higher score, but it's usually not until the early 1900's that it all seems to eventually come together. How early do you need to decide on the victory condition you are going for to aim for a win prior to the modern era?

I would say there is no condition that you need to decide on "early" that you are going for -- but then again, that term varies depending upon when you started and any given circumstances. Excluding Time, I'd say typically a Space or Culture victories are apt to take the longest followed by a similar toss-up between Diplomacy and Domination.

Oh and Dan, was that your croaky voice at the end announcing the record date? If so i hope you feel better

Heh, yes, that's me, two days after I'd all but lost my voice -- thank you for the well wishes. It was a bout of laryngitis which I'm pleased to say has passed (lasted ~4-5 days in total).