PolyCast Episode 301: "Quality Side Eye"

[DanQ]

Swol. The three hundred-and-first episode of PolyCast, "Quality Side Eye", features regular co-hosts Daniel "DanQ" Quick, Stephanie "Makahlua" and Philip "TheMeInTeam" Bellew with returning guest co-host Brian "bite" MacNamara and first-time guest co-host "Leyrann". It carries a runtime of 59m59s.

The summary of topics is as follows:

- 01m50s | Forum Talk
Completing the "first looks" of new civilizations in Civilization VI: Rise and Fall leads to first the Mapuche and then the Incia (06m52s, plus at 12m33s from Episode 299); then, a rundown of the new tile improvements the expansion brings about followed by finding connections between previously released civs and the new or revised game mechanics (20m33s), taking temperature on Free City aggression (24m23s), the Artificial Intelligence's (AI) lust for capturing City States (33m18s), running down Era Point possibilities and taking issue with the choices the game's AI makes (48m49s; recorded for Episode 283).

- Intro/Outro | Miscellaneous
Naming convention, optimizing search engine results and accounting for responsibilities.

PolyCast is a bi-weekly audio production recording live every other Saturday throughout the year, in an ongoing effort to give the Civilization community an interactive voice; sibling show ModCast focuses on Civ modding, TurnCast on Civ multiplay.

 

[Uberfrog]

Another great episode, it’s nice to hear some deeper insights into Rise and Fall now we’ve all had he expansion for a couple of weeks.

I have to say I agree with TMIT and the panel on the City-State issue- it certainly is a balance, rather than AI issue. And it seems Firaxis agree, as increased strength and bonus wal production is one of the things they’ve just announced for the next patch! Let’s see if it makes a difference.

I also agree with Leyrann that it is disappointing that later milestones, particularly in the Space Race (and the Manhattan Project) reward so little Era Score.

 

[DanQ]

Another great episode, it’s nice to hear some deeper insights into Rise and Fall now we’ve all had he expansion for a couple of weeks.

Thank you kindly.

I have to say I agree with TMIT and the panel on the City-State issue- it certainly is a balance, rather than AI issue. And it seems Firaxis agree, as increased strength and bonus wal production is one of the things they’ve just announced for the next patch! Let’s see if it makes a difference.

Well, well now... 2K/Firaxis making a Civ announcement the week of a PolyCast recording!? What madness is this?

 

[legalizefreedom]

Sorry @TheMeInTeam, food is rarely situational, IMO. Big cities are better than small cities. (I know, I know housing and amenities).
If nothing else, it gives an opportunity for food replacement when you build over farms in the later game.

The one really good development in VI has been the various things you can build in the water. Very welcome. Now we just need an ocean-only tidal generator or something for the industrial/modern era.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Sorry @TheMeInTeam, food is rarely situational, IMO. Big cities are better than small cities. (I know, I know housing and amenities).
If nothing else, it gives an opportunity for food replacement when you build over farms in the later game.

The one really good development in VI has been the various things you can build in the water. Very welcome. Now we just need an ocean-only tidal generator or something for the industrial/modern era.

It's been well over a week since we recorded this, so I forget the exact context. That said, investing in food is indeed situational. You need to pay something to get it, and then have a means to translate it to something else. Raw pop growth is nice and all, but of marginal meaning until the pop is doing something useful (productive tiles or slots). The presence of housing cap, amenities, and break point district requirements each make food even more situational.

This is arguably a good thing, as you have to think about your investments more than just "run slavery --> convert it to hammers, preferably with overflow calculations in mind"...but to say investing in this is "rarely" situational...unless the context was something I'm forgetting I just don't see that. Not in my experience, and not watching fast wins like civtrader.

 

[WillowBrook]

Good episode as usual. I listened to it after the announcement about the upcoming patch and found myself thinking that you all need to keep analysing the things that need to be tweaked - sounds like Firaxis is listening!

 

[Timothy001]

Well, well now... 2K/Firaxis making a Civ announcement the week of a PolyCast recording!? What madness is this?

This is strange indeed. They usually wait until right after a podcast to make the announcement. Hopefully we have the patch notes before #302

 

[legalizefreedom]

It's been well over a week since we recorded this, so I forget the exact context. That said, investing in food is indeed situational. You need to pay something to get it, and then have a means to translate it to something else. Raw pop growth is nice and all, but of marginal meaning until the pop is doing something useful (productive tiles or slots). The presence of housing cap, amenities, and break point district requirements each make food even more situational.

This is arguably a good thing, as you have to think about your investments more than just "run slavery --> convert it to hammers, preferably with overflow calculations in mind"...but to say investing in this is "rarely" situational...unless the context was something I'm forgetting I just don't see that. Not in my experience, and not watching fast wins like civtrader.

I get your points. I'm sure they are correct in a proper sense.

My opinion coming from a growth player. I play the long game (necessarily King or Prince). My cities never stop growing. I never stop settling. Every (worked) tile is contributing. Unless distracted by something shiny...

Maybe the snowball takes a little longer this way, but once you crest the hump, you can do anything you want and that's generally where I want to be.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I get your points. I'm sure they are correct in a proper sense.

My opinion coming from a growth player. I play the long game (necessarily King or Prince). My cities never stop growing. I never stop settling. Every (worked) tile is contributing. Unless distracted by something shiny...

Maybe the snowball takes a little longer this way, but once you crest the hump, you can do anything you want and that's generally where I want to be.

The situational argument comes from the framework of making optimal decisions for strengthening the empire. When civtrader wins domination barely over t100 or totally peaceful science victories before t170, "doing what you want" is "achieving the desired victory condition". There are choices that get you there on the earliest turn, and then there are other choices.

If you are consistently investing in food without carefully considering why you're doing so, you will often be making one of those other choices, regardless of desired VC.

 

[legalizefreedom]

The situational argument comes from the framework of making optimal decisions for strengthening the empire. When civtrader wins domination barely over t100 or totally peaceful science victories before t170, "doing what you want" is "achieving the desired victory condition". There are choices that get you there on the earliest turn, and then there are other choices.

If you are consistently investing in food without carefully considering why you're doing so, you will often be making one of those other choices, regardless of desired VC.

Yeah, a lot of people play the game like a puzzle, so they are concerned with things like victory conditions and what turn they happen so they play... how do you say... optimal.

Those are necessarily specialize empires and playing that way seems very robotic to me. I usually have virtually all the VC available to me and take one when I'm finished.

I like to say, "Play the game, don't let the game play you", but I respect all the ways people play. Me, my people like to eat!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yeah, a lot of people play the game like a puzzle, so they are concerned with things like victory conditions and what turn they happen so they play... how do you say... optimal.

Those are necessarily specialize empires and playing that way seems very robotic to me. I usually have virtually all the VC available to me and take one when I'm finished.

I like to say, "Play the game, don't let the game play you", but I respect all the ways people play. Me, my people like to eat!

If you eschew optimization, the distinction of "situational" is meaningless. Nothing about food makes it special compared to "building medics", "nukes", "pikemen", or "tundra cities with no resources". If you're willing to accept the proposition that tundra cities with no resources are also not situational, I will concede that from that frame of reference food is similarly not situational.

If not, then I assert not being willing to spam tundra cities with no resources is "robotic".

 

[DanQ]

Good episode as usual.

Thank you kindly.

I listened to it after the announcement about the upcoming patch and found myself thinking that you all need to keep analysing the things that need to be tweaked - sounds like Firaxis is listening!

We're glad to be apart of the Civ community, including our voice within while raising collective view of others.

Hopefully we have the patch notes before #302

Not only has that come to pass, but the patch itself is also live!

 

[Timothy001]

Thank you kindly.


We're glad to be apart of the Civ community, including our voice within while raising collective view of others.


Not only has that come to pass, but the patch itself is also live!

I noticed. Hopefully I have a chance to play before Sat.

 

[legalizefreedom]

If you eschew optimization, the distinction of "situational" is meaningless. Nothing about food makes it special compared to "building medics", "nukes", "pikemen", or "tundra cities with no resources". If you're willing to accept the proposition that tundra cities with no resources are also not situational, I will concede that from that frame of reference food is similarly not situational.

If not, then I assert not being willing to spam tundra cities with no resources is "robotic".

Yes, instead of challenging the situational nature of food, I should have just said it is the default priority. Everything is situational, right? I have to keep up appearances, but I probably play more optimal than I care to admit. So I think my comments are based more on priority than situation if we want to get picky.

The strengths of the city certainly play into that, but I'm always going to make sure food and production are my first priorities which I don't believe is unique to any certain playstyle. The difference is I continue to make food a priority so that my cities don't stagnate because that just feels wrong. It happens occasionally, but I don't like it.

So to get back to the original purpose here, if I have a new city on the coast (which is already a situation), I'm pumping these water (or other) food improvements as one of my first priorities (along with production). But if the city is established and is already growing at a good clip, I will prioritize a larger need. I don't consider builder charges any great investment since I always run the extra production and charge card for these as soon as available.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Production is almost always a higher priority than food. In a coastal city you need infrastructure up very fast w/o fresh water or food is already being wasted to an extent at pop 2. It's pretty rare to have a serviceable city where food is the primary bottleneck for a meaningful period of time, meaning the "default" priority is likely a different, more common bottleneck (military survival, production, housing, amenities).

 

[megabearsfan]

A possible new strategy for England: re-capture the same independent city to farm free melee units.
Capture a city on another continent, get free melee unit. Then let the city's loyalty cause it to flip to independent, then recapture it and get another free melee unit. Repeat for as long as you like. I did this, and the time it took for the city to flip and for me to re-capture it was roughly the same as producing a new unit in the capital. In fact, do you even get warmonger penalty for capturing independent cities? If not, then this would also bypass such penalties.

 

[Uberfrog]

A possible new strategy for England: re-capture the same independent city to farm free melee units.
Capture a city on another continent, get free melee unit. Then let the city's loyalty cause it to flip to independent, then recapture it and get another free melee unit. Repeat for as long as you like. I did this, and the time it took for the city to flip and for me to re-capture it was roughly the same as producing a new unit in the capital. In fact, do you even get warmonger penalty for capturing independent cities? If not, then this would also bypass such penalties.

I’m afraid I’ve got some bad news...

 

[megabearsfan]

I’m afraid I’ve got some bad news...

Oh, did they already patch that out? That was quick. Gosh, I guess it has been a whole month already, hasn't it?
Wait, is the Pax Britanica ability not supposed to work for captured cities?

 

[bite]

this was fun to record, turns out I get hashtag-y at 3am in the morning

 

[Uberfrog]

Oh, did they already patch that out? That was quick. Gosh, I guess it has been a whole month already, hasn't it?
Wait, is the Pax Britanica ability not supposed to work for captured cities?

It was previously supposed to work that way, but with R&F introducing the ability to exploit free cities that you describe, they decided to nerf England to counter it. People aren’t happy, you can read more in the thread on it in these very forums...