Possibility of bringing success chance back to espionage system

[greenfieldpark]

To my knowledge all diplomats do is the "Shmoozing" effect. Which is giving you a positive modifier for relations.

Oh and they also give you access to some more trade options, which aren't very beneficial early game. Diplomats are more of an end game tool for the civs you can't immediately destroy. (To be honest if they have some more uses I'd like to know.)

This is why the devs expertly made diplomats gain the most experience. It's a bit of a trade-off in the early game. Yes, you can get the quick experience but while they are at Diplomat in the early game it's not really helping you.

Ahh gotcha. Do spies get decent xp?

 

[Bryan317]

Ahh gotcha. Do spies get decent xp?

Well in a CS it's probably the least amount. If you station them within your own cities they won't get any. But again this is by design. Just as diplomats in a foreign city has limited uses. A spy within one of your own cities has instant positive effects. Buffing your specialist is one I find to be the most useful.

 

[greenfieldpark]

Well in a CS it's probably the least amount. If you station them within your own cities they won't get any. But again this is by design. Just as diplomats in a foreign city has limited uses. A spy within one of your own cities has instant positive effects. Buffing your specialist is one I find to be the most useful.

You can buff your own specialist with a spy in your own city? Ok i gotta figure out spying. Im clearly lost. Must be on the congress thread. Will check it out.

Edit:
Maybe there is a better way to find the current spy mechanic but i cant find it. I see multiple proposals that have been passed for spying and its hard to understand how the current system works.

 

[Bryan317]

You can buff your own specialist with a spy in your own city? Ok i gotta figure out spying. Im clearly lost. Must be on the congress thread. Will check it out.

Edit:
Maybe there is a better way to find the current spy mechanic but i cant find it. I see multiple proposals that have been passed for spying and its hard to understand how the current system works.

I actually only played one game with the newer espionage lol. I was hooked on an old version for a long time.

It's not hard at all. It's just like assigning spies in the past. You send them to a city of choice. But when they have set up their Introductions/Spy network (a few turns later) you'll get a list of options to choose. It's pretty informative because it tells you how many turns it will take and the chance you will be discovered. I guess what is new is the fact that you will always succeed. It's just a chance that the rival will discover who did it. Or possibly capture the spy? Can't remember.

 

[pineappledan]

There was discussion of adding an option to turn offensive spy actions off.

I agree with OP that this new spy system was built for competitive and high tier players in mind to the detriment of casual players. The new system assumes a human player isn’t too far out ahead that every other player is sending all their spies to them, but that’s precisely what happens in lower difficulties. Some people don’t like playing from behind, and the modders failed to respect that with this new system.

 

[Tekamthi]

The new system assumes a human player isn’t too far out ahead that every other player is sending all their spies to them, but that’s precisely what happens in lower difficulties.

This reflects my experience -- I've seen a little bit of the issue described in OP, but I have yet to enter the late game, even mid game, in the top spot with the new system, so it really hasn't felt that pronounced. I've generally expected that if I were, I'd be targeted heavily, and I didn't really enjoy this in the other system either even if it kinda made sense.

I'm not sold on the new system being better than the old one, but I am highly motivated to avoid further overhauls -- this problem strikes me as adjustable or tweakable. Can the AI's weighting of spy priorities be tweaked? As human I don't always go after the top player exclusively, I tend to prioritize anyone from the middle of the field and up, equivalent or ahead of me in techs, with considerations for proximity and relevance to the immediate plans I have for conquest etc. Whatever computation is leading AI to dogpile the top player could maybe just use some additional variables.

Outside of AI rebalancing, giving players simple and moderately effective counter spy options seems in order -- will have to be balanced carefully to not flip gameplay the other way where offensive spy actions are useless... I prefer things that create competing choices (ie I previously suggested envoys should confer spy defense if kept at home in a city, creates choice of sending to cs or defending from spies) vs just things like more defense buildings with flat effect.

Maybe the offensive actions could be restricted or made more costly -- not sure where to go with this exactly, but in old civ games we actually had to build the spies rather than getting them for free; this made for a production-based limitation.

 

[Bryan317]

I'm willing to say there was nothing great about any previous version. So the option to just turn it off completely is very valid.

If we were to switch to a chance to succeed mechanic there's a good possibility the effects would not work in your favor. And would be like they were turned off anyways

 

[Slyceth]

Random chance is not fun but I would compromise for "roll-over chance". Meaning if you fail one espionage try, the next one has an increased chance to succeed.

 

[Stalker0]

There was discussion of adding an option to turn offensive spy actions off.

I agree with OP that this new spy system was built for competitive and high tier players in mind to the detriment of casual players. The new system assumes a human player isn’t too far out ahead that every other player is sending all their spies to them, but that’s precisely what happens in lower difficulties. Some people don’t like playing from behind, and the modders failed to respect that with this new system.

What the last congress vote showed us is...there really isn't any scenario where we can please everyone with one system. While the current version won, it was by a decently thin margin.

At the end of the day likely the only answer is a mod mod. We stick with a core system that has the approval of the majority, and then mod mod fills in the gap for those who feel Dis enamored by the chosen system.

 

[Agiwan]

My main issue isn't with stealing itself, but with complete inability to protect myself from it. And how can I counteract if average number of civs stealing simultaneously is like 6 out of 12, if not all of them?

If so, how do I switch to this version?

It is not implemented yet.

 

[axatin]

First off, the new espionage system is a complete redesign (motivated by widespread discontent with the previous system, discussions on how to rework espionage had been going on for a long time). Because of the scale of the rework, I wouldn’t expect another major rework in the near future and so I’d like to encourage everyone to familiarize oneself with how the new system works. The proposal describing the system can be found here (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-cp-espionage-system-overhaul.685902/), with some minor modifications as described here (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-cp-tweaked-version-of-azum4rolls-espionage-overhaul.686239/).

As others have already noted, it is not correct that there‘s no way to protect oneself against enemy spies. A counterspy can be used to significantly slow down the progress foreign spies make. Example: If a rank 2 spy is used against a civ that‘s 5 techs ahead, the spy will generate 40 NP per turn (20 base, 10 from spy rank, 10 from tech difference). If the city owner uses a rank 2 counterspy to build a counterespionage network, NP generation will be reduced by 20, so the attacking spy will need twice as long to complete a mission. This is comparable to the missions having a 50% failure chance.

In addition to using counterspies, it’s also possible to increase city security to slow down foreign spies.

AI tends to steal Great Works most of the time, because it's the cheapest action now.

That‘s not correct, the AI choose missions based mostly on strategical/tactical considerations, if they‘re behind in tech they prefer to steal technologies, if they want to go for a CV they prefer to steal Great Works, etc. Other factors like their relationship to the owner of the city also play a role in deciding which city/mission to choose.

Also stealing GW will take random players' GW, it's not even related to those being in the city spy operates in.

That‘s also not correct.

The new system assumes a human player isn’t too far out ahead that every other player is sending all their spies to them, but that’s precisely what happens in lower difficulties. Some people don’t like playing from behind, and the modders failed to respect that with this new system.

They did not. Quoting from the proposal:

"Add the following Security modifiers:

Settler difficulty: +20
Chieftain difficulty: +10

Players on lower difficulty levels will likely be targeted by spies more often due to being in the lead, and players still learning the game should get a buff to their Security as a result."

If necessary, those modifiers can be increased or given also on mid-level difficulties.


On a general note, providing feedback is always appreciated (as the new system is a very large rework, it‘s very likely that adjustments will be necessary), but please familiarize yourselves with how the new system works before doing so. Also, it‘s best if feedback is based on actual experiences made while playing and not on assumptions or expectations.

 

[azum4roll]

Is there any preference of which GW is stolen from the city? If it's purely random right now, I'd propose it to take the non-themed ones first, then lower theming bonus first. With the assumption that themed works are more securely protected.

 

[Zanteogo]

Is there any preference of which GW is stolen from the city? If it's purely random right now, I'd propose it to take the non-themed ones first, then lower theming bonus first. With the assumption that themed works are more securely protected.

Just saying, if we change it back to where the civ just steals a copy of the GW all this won't be an issue.

The biggest issue is the fact that buring a GP for a GW is now way less appealing because the rewards over time are now limited to when you can actually hang on to it.

Great writers will be the worst because the instant culture boost will be way more appealing than the unpredictable trickle from a GW

 

[Bryan317]

Well to be honest GW have limited use unless you are going for the cultural victory. If you aren't, the cultural boost is almost always a better choice. It doesn't hurt to to make a few so that you can get the theming bonuses on a few buildings. But then pillaging them through War also works.

 

[Stalker0]

Just saying, if we change it back to where the civ just steals a copy of the GW all this won't be an issue.

The biggest issue is the fact that buring a GP for a GW is now way less appealing because the rewards over time are now limited to when you can actually hang on to it.

Great writers will be the worst because the instant culture boost will be way more appealing than the unpredictable trickle from a GW

Inthink it’s a worthy Congress proposal to copy rather than steal the work and lower the cost of the mission

 

[azum4roll]

GW theft has been a thing for years in VP. It was just never a problem before because AI only put their spies in capitals?

 

[Zanteogo]

GW theft has been a thing for years in VP. It was just never a problem before because AI only put their spies in capitals?

Originally your capital was protected from theft. It made it so it was advantageous just to stockpile everything in your capital, which normally had more than enough slots.
Problem was it effectively removed theft from the game all together for the player,

It was then changed so the spy created a copy (forgery) of the great work. This was a happy middle ground.

The more recent changes now make it so the actual great work is stolen, from anywhere including capital.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

one option would be to allow stacking of multiple counterspies on a single city, if paired with spies only being able to steal great works from the city they are in. This way there is a tradeoff where you can choose to commit to the capital defense at the expense of other actions.

 

[Bryan317]

one option would be to allow stacking of multiple counterspies on a single city, if paired with spies only being able to steal great works from the city they are in. This way there is a tradeoff where you can choose to commit to the capital defense at the expense of other actions.

Well this is a nice thought. Maybe more than one spy could gaurentee anti theft if desired.

I think the love for these great works is based on more of a role-playing experience. There's nothing wrong with that, because there's no wrong way to enjoy this game. But it isn't that devastating when they're stolen. Perhaps it just made it so one of your buildings isn't providing the theming bonus anymore?

But again if you're specifically going for the cultural Victory and these are being stolen hand over fist, I suppose that could be annoying.

 

[pineappledan]

The events system was controversial and not well-liked for a long time before espionage started using the event system. Advanced actions are just bad events. As far as I am concerned, They are not qualitatively different than stochastic terrorism. I have minimal control over them or protection, except to make them happen less frequently. But that’s not good enough. It will never be good enough, because they aren’t fun in any amount. They weren’t fun in 2015, they aren’t fun now, and the only solution I will accept is turning them off.

There was a large contingent of the community that has had events disabled, and I am among them. As far as I am concerned, advanced actions are little more than a Trojan horse for the events system, which is not merely bad design, it’s actively scummy and anti-choice. Now bad events are holding the spy system hostage, which also affects traits, policies and tech progression.

It’s fine if the advanced action system is an extra, optional part of espionage, but it should not be on by default. It is a poison pill I am forced to swallow, and the main reason I quit most of my games past renaissance these days. What I need is some way to be able to play the game without advanced actions, the same as I can play without events.