Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod
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Son of Moose
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FexFX
Yes .... Absolutely!!! I can actually see no other way of being able to effectively play this type of mod.
Yes .... I certainly fully understand this predicament.
However, I would (if at all feasible) prefer the former option in preference to the latter one. The latter option just seems so counter-intuitive and against the whole philosophy of this mod. 
Maybe, however, it might be necessary to follow some sort of "Middle Path" with this mod.
Also remember that, in time (a couple of years), the average computer will (hopefully) be a lot more powerful than those owned by most people these days. Moore's Law and all that ....
Therefore, I genuinely think that it would be far better to try to plan for this eventuality rather than be too restricted by current norms. 
Perhaps most people can initially play this mod on somewhat smaller than optimum maps .... with the subsequent ability to try LITTLE on bigger maps in order to feel its true epic nature.
More just now ....
Yes .... Absolutely!!! I can actually see no other way of being able to effectively play this type of mod.
Yes .... I certainly fully understand this predicament.
However, I would (if at all feasible) prefer the former option in preference to the latter one. The latter option just seems so counter-intuitive and against the whole philosophy of this mod. Maybe, however, it might be necessary to follow some sort of "Middle Path" with this mod. Also remember that, in time (a couple of years), the average computer will (hopefully) be a lot more powerful than those owned by most people these days. Moore's Law and all that ....
Therefore, I genuinely think that it would be far better to try to plan for this eventuality rather than be too restricted by current norms. Perhaps most people can initially play this mod on somewhat smaller than optimum maps .... with the subsequent ability to try LITTLE on bigger maps in order to feel its true epic nature. More just now ....
Son of Moose
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FexFX
Sounds good!!
I really like the idea of using these new techs as the lynchpin (and justification) for adding new buildings to the game. This is totally compatible with my idea to convert Civ 4 into even more of a building game .... which should definitely serve to make it a far more epic Empire Building venture as most of ones cities would (presumably) now have to contain a far wider selection of buildings. Therefore there would ALWAYS be something to do during this massively prolonged Ancient era.
I really like the ideas that precede this quote.
In a way, this reminds me of the seven different improvements that one can make to several of the buildings appearing in the RTS game "American Conquest" (AC). I actually think that AC has the makings of an excellent CB (City Builder) game ....
Mmmm .... maybe unit production might need to be slowed down a tad. However, especially with a strongly augmented list of buildings and aesthetic structures (possibly also including a new range of terrain improvements), it would imho be desirable to maintain the default building rate. Otherwise, it might prove extremely tedious to have to wait 100+ turns for an Obelisk.
One would merely be prolonging the game with no apparent benefit if ALL parameters were increased seven (or whatever) fold. Definitely (as you so correctly suggest), more techs and more buildings (researched and build according to the default rate) would be the way to go!!
This might well be the solution for all military and civilian units .... but not technologies and buildings (refer above).
Therefore in summary:
Thank you for your suggestions .... they sound EXTREMELY PROMISING !! They should prove truly awesome when used in conjunction with some of the abovementioned mods ....
Sounds good!!
I really like the idea of using these new techs as the lynchpin (and justification) for adding new buildings to the game. This is totally compatible with my idea to convert Civ 4 into even more of a building game .... which should definitely serve to make it a far more epic Empire Building venture as most of ones cities would (presumably) now have to contain a far wider selection of buildings. Therefore there would ALWAYS be something to do during this massively prolonged Ancient era.
I really like the ideas that precede this quote.
In a way, this reminds me of the seven different improvements that one can make to several of the buildings appearing in the RTS game "American Conquest" (AC). I actually think that AC has the makings of an excellent CB (City Builder) game ....
Mmmm .... maybe unit production might need to be slowed down a tad.
However, especially with a strongly augmented list of buildings and aesthetic structures (possibly also including a new range of terrain improvements), it would imho be desirable to maintain the default building rate. Otherwise, it might prove extremely tedious to have to wait 100+ turns for an Obelisk. One would merely be prolonging the game with no apparent benefit if ALL parameters were increased seven (or whatever) fold. Definitely (as you so correctly suggest), more techs and more buildings (researched and build according to the default rate) would be the way to go!!
This might well be the solution for all military and civilian units
.... but not technologies and buildings (refer above). Therefore in summary:
Thank you for your suggestions .... they sound EXTREMELY PROMISING !!
They should prove truly awesome when used in conjunction with some of the abovementioned mods .... Son of Moose
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FexFX
The Ancient Mediterranean MOD:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3391178#post3391178
The Ancient Mediterranean MOD:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=3391178#post3391178
I'll have to check that mod out!
Look at their tech tree for ideas.
24 new techs planned and counting...
Most of these just break things up, but several prmise new buildings and incremental changes to units/land usage/tile bonuses.
Right now I am mapping it out using Excel...I havent begun to program most of them yet...
Look at their tech tree for ideas.
24 new techs planned and counting...
Most of these just break things up, but several prmise new buildings and incremental changes to units/land usage/tile bonuses.
Right now I am mapping it out using Excel...I havent begun to program most of them yet...
Son of Moose
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FexFX
This sounds most promising indeed!!
Within reason (obviously), I think that it would be an excellent idea if you could possibly check Civ 2 and 3, CTP 1 and 2 as well as most of the existing mods in the CivFanatics and Apolyton forums for additional techs, resources and buildings that could be added to the game. I think that the trick will be to rationally and seamlessly integrate all these new technologies (and their associated buildings) into the game .... without overly changing its underlying ethos.
This type of in-depth research (together with continued forum member input) would (hopefully) succeed in unearthing a veritable wealth of material that could readily be incorporated into the LITTLE mod.
I would most certainly view this mod as a long-term and ongoing enterprise .... something that could possibly equal the scope of the DYP and AoM mods (for Civ 3 and CTP 2, respectively).
This sounds most promising indeed!!
Within reason (obviously), I think that it would be an excellent idea if you could possibly check Civ 2 and 3, CTP 1 and 2 as well as most of the existing mods in the CivFanatics and Apolyton forums for additional techs, resources and buildings that could be added to the game. I think that the trick will be to rationally and seamlessly integrate all these new technologies (and their associated buildings) into the game .... without overly changing its underlying ethos.
This type of in-depth research (together with continued forum member input) would (hopefully) succeed in unearthing a veritable wealth of material that could readily be incorporated into the LITTLE mod.
I would most certainly view this mod as a long-term and ongoing enterprise .... something that could possibly equal the scope of the DYP and AoM mods (for Civ 3 and CTP 2, respectively).
One thing you'll need to take into account in any long game is that certain AI players will consistently fail. I noticed this in my own playtests of ultra-long games.
Essentially what happens is that a few AIs end up building a great many warrior units early on. Hundreds, in fact. The warriors suck up so much gold in maintenance that the AI fails to keep up with its neighbors tech-wise, and those neighbors end up creating smaller armies of more powerful units. Because the comparative power rating between the failing AI and its neighbors is too small for the AI to consider declaring war, after the early game it'll never go to war with anyone. So it'll spend 95% of its income maintaining a huge but useless army of warriors all the way through the modern age, or until one of its neighbors outclasses it so much it gets conquered.
This means that the AI players who engage in this activity are essentially a waste since they'll never challenge anyone. Furthermore, they make so many units that turns slow waaaaaay down, since they constantly compare power ratings and possible invasion scenarios, always rejecting them because the ratio between themselves and their neighbors is never high enough. Yet it will still make the calculations each and every turn for each and every unit, meaning that you'll eventually end up spending almost a minute waiting for each turn to process - at least until you go and kick their asses yourself, to speed things up. Probably quite a bit longer on slower computers.
This is not a function of the 'Aggressive' leader trait. For example, the Japanese AI engaged in this behavior every single game, but the Mongol player (in my last, longest game) did not. Fixing it won't be a simple thing.
Max
Essentially what happens is that a few AIs end up building a great many warrior units early on. Hundreds, in fact. The warriors suck up so much gold in maintenance that the AI fails to keep up with its neighbors tech-wise, and those neighbors end up creating smaller armies of more powerful units. Because the comparative power rating between the failing AI and its neighbors is too small for the AI to consider declaring war, after the early game it'll never go to war with anyone. So it'll spend 95% of its income maintaining a huge but useless army of warriors all the way through the modern age, or until one of its neighbors outclasses it so much it gets conquered.
This means that the AI players who engage in this activity are essentially a waste since they'll never challenge anyone. Furthermore, they make so many units that turns slow waaaaaay down, since they constantly compare power ratings and possible invasion scenarios, always rejecting them because the ratio between themselves and their neighbors is never high enough. Yet it will still make the calculations each and every turn for each and every unit, meaning that you'll eventually end up spending almost a minute waiting for each turn to process - at least until you go and kick their asses yourself, to speed things up. Probably quite a bit longer on slower computers.
This is not a function of the 'Aggressive' leader trait. For example, the Japanese AI engaged in this behavior every single game, but the Mongol player (in my last, longest game) did not. Fixing it won't be a simple thing.
Max
Son of Moose
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Maxpublic
Thank you so much for this most interesting (and potentially extremely useful) post.
Perhaps other forum members can let us know precisely which Civs tend to adopt this strategy .... as (you so correctly say) this could be extremely problematic in this type of "ultra epic" mod.
[Yes .... I have previously read about the antics of the Japanese ) ].
I suppose that having to exclude various opponents will ultimately be a small price to pay in order to be able to play this truly epic mod ....
Thank you so much for this most interesting (and potentially extremely useful) post.
Perhaps other forum members can let us know precisely which Civs tend to adopt this strategy .... as (you so correctly say) this could be extremely problematic in this type of "ultra epic" mod.
[Yes .... I have previously read about the antics of the Japanese
) ].I suppose that having to exclude various opponents will ultimately be a small price to pay in order to be able to play this truly epic mod ....
Shqype
Shqyptar
This, if done correctly , could be the most accurate , fun , civilization mod available.
To the man that mentioned random events ... yes , that is a definite. But look at the "Desert War" mod included with the game... at certain points (and on certain conditions) events occur. This would be very useful for creating new civilization after certain periods of time as a means of creating historical accuracy.
Human history has known large amounts of migrations. In relation to my own area of the world , it would be cool to have , for example , the slavic migrations from Ukraine into the Balkans begin in the 4th century AD (perhaps symbolized by hoardes of barbarians) and by the 7th / 8th century AD they can turn into a stable civilization (Croatia , Serbia).
Also , you shoud mod the tech speeds as well. By default , the game has the ancient era as the biggest multiplier of technology. I thought it should be reversed, since in those days technological advances came very slowly , and with time more and more technology came into effect. This will help span the massive time and turn amount you want in your mod, because the technology in the beginning will take much longer to research, as was the case realistically in human history.
To the man that mentioned random events ... yes , that is a definite. But look at the "Desert War" mod included with the game... at certain points (and on certain conditions) events occur. This would be very useful for creating new civilization after certain periods of time as a means of creating historical accuracy.
Human history has known large amounts of migrations. In relation to my own area of the world , it would be cool to have , for example , the slavic migrations from Ukraine into the Balkans begin in the 4th century AD (perhaps symbolized by hoardes of barbarians) and by the 7th / 8th century AD they can turn into a stable civilization (Croatia , Serbia).
Also , you shoud mod the tech speeds as well. By default , the game has the ancient era as the biggest multiplier of technology. I thought it should be reversed, since in those days technological advances came very slowly , and with time more and more technology came into effect. This will help span the massive time and turn amount you want in your mod, because the technology in the beginning will take much longer to research, as was the case realistically in human history.
Son of Moose
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Shqype
Thank you for your faith in the LITTLE mod. Yes, I sincerely hope that this mod will indeed prove to be most enjoyable (and challenging) to play.
Yes .... this could be a most interesting type of random event!!
I must admit that (personally speaking) I am not particularly in favour of heavily punitive random events (disasters) that will merely succeed in destroying a large portion of one's hard-won emerging Empire. I think that this would be an extremely unfun feature .... although there may well be others who might disagree with this particular viewpoint.
Yes .... this (within reason .... remember the fun factor ) could well be the way to go. Perhaps the early stages of the game should concentrate more on building cultural (aesthetic) structures which will serve to slowly but surely "ratchet up" the cultural influence of the various existing cities.
However, again reflecting upon the fun factor, all these aspects must be carefully balanced so that there is ALWAYS a sense of progression and achievement throughout the early period of the game. Nothing must drag unduly and there must always be some minor achievement (a tech or a building/structure) within a few turns of completion. Every such achievement represents a minor victory for one's people and should (hopefully) make the player feel some sense of achievement .... so much so that s/he definitely wishes to play one more turn ....
This imho is a SINGULARLY IMPORTANT consideration to address in the ongoing development of this LITTLE mod.
Thank you for your faith in the LITTLE mod.
Yes, I sincerely hope that this mod will indeed prove to be most enjoyable (and challenging) to play. Yes .... this could be a most interesting type of random event!!
I must admit that (personally speaking) I am not particularly in favour of heavily punitive random events (disasters) that will merely succeed in destroying a large portion of one's hard-won emerging Empire. I think that this would be an extremely unfun feature .... although there may well be others who might disagree with this particular viewpoint.Yes .... this (within reason .... remember the fun factor
) could well be the way to go. Perhaps the early stages of the game should concentrate more on building cultural (aesthetic) structures which will serve to slowly but surely "ratchet up" the cultural influence of the various existing cities. However, again reflecting upon the fun factor, all these aspects must be carefully balanced so that there is ALWAYS a sense of progression and achievement throughout the early period of the game. Nothing must drag unduly and there must always be some minor achievement (a tech or a building/structure) within a few turns of completion. Every such achievement represents a minor victory for one's people and should (hopefully) make the player feel some sense of achievement .... so much so that s/he definitely wishes to play one more turn ....
This imho is a SINGULARLY IMPORTANT consideration to address in the ongoing development of this LITTLE mod.
One other thing you might want to consider: in stock Civ it's possible to bypass chunks of the tech tree, something many of the AIs will do. This will bollix any attempt to linearly scale eras so that you have 'period gaming', as certain AIs race for that special tech (e.g., Gunpowder) which throws everything out of whack.
In my own playtests, I made it possible to get a local advantage in tech but not a global one. That is, you could focus your efforts on certain techs, such as production, for a specific length of time, but eventually you *had* to go back and get what you skipped, else you couldn't move forward on the tech tree at all. So, local advantages yes, global advantages no. This worked to differentiate the various civs (and give the player a choice) but also meant that no civ could screw up the technological progression from era to era too much by just ignoring certain techs.
Max
In my own playtests, I made it possible to get a local advantage in tech but not a global one. That is, you could focus your efforts on certain techs, such as production, for a specific length of time, but eventually you *had* to go back and get what you skipped, else you couldn't move forward on the tech tree at all. So, local advantages yes, global advantages no. This worked to differentiate the various civs (and give the player a choice) but also meant that no civ could screw up the technological progression from era to era too much by just ignoring certain techs.
Max
Son of Moose
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Maxpublic
Yes .... I must admit that the non-linear tech tree does have certain potential disadvantages for this ultra-epic type mod.
Perhaps it might well be necessary (if it is indeed possible) to re-introduce a more linear tech tree in this mod .... in order to prevent potential ai "abuses". Of course, it is a matter of opinion as to exactly what constitutes an abuse of the tech tree and what represents an innovative strategy.
This seems a totally appropriate and realistic compromise. Perhaps one should need to acquire a "full house" of requisite techs in order to progress from one era to another .... as this would represent a major achievement in this ultra-epic mod (with the extremely long eras .... which I suppose could possibly be further sub-divided).
EXCELLENT!!
Yes .... I must admit that the non-linear tech tree does have certain potential disadvantages for this ultra-epic type mod.
Perhaps it might well be necessary (if it is indeed possible) to re-introduce a more linear tech tree in this mod .... in order to prevent potential ai "abuses". Of course, it is a matter of opinion as to exactly what constitutes an abuse of the tech tree and what represents an innovative strategy.
This seems a totally appropriate and realistic compromise.
Perhaps one should need to acquire a "full house" of requisite techs in order to progress from one era to another .... as this would represent a major achievement in this ultra-epic mod (with the extremely long eras .... which I suppose could possibly be further sub-divided). EXCELLENT!!
How nice to see other people enjoying the ancient times. Might I suggest you all take a look at this spreadsheet I made for Civ3 and which borrowed from CTP and the Civ3 TAM. It would need to be revamped to allow for Civ4 specific mechanics but it could serve as a basis for the ancient age tech tree. In fact this one stops when you enter the middle-ages with a tech called "Decadence" - the equivalent of Future tech.
I've already modded a lot with regards to the timeline & other issues (have a zip file for that too but too large to upload here. So far a game with that mod lasts 1300 turns and I manage to get Monarchy around 2000BC so its fairly "historical".
Anyhow see what you think.
G.
I've already modded a lot with regards to the timeline & other issues (have a zip file for that too but too large to upload here. So far a game with that mod lasts 1300 turns and I manage to get Monarchy around 2000BC so its fairly "historical".
Anyhow see what you think.
G.
Shqype
Shqyptar
I agree with you on having random events that could singlehandedly destroy all the hard work put into building your empire, but if you put none in then you compromise accuracy.
My migrations idea would be something very interesting that has never (at least I dont think) been done before in a mod. It creates adventure and excitement: barbarians suddenly occupying your lands trying to establish a foothold in the region, and when they eventually do, they become a static civ that you can have relations with.
Adding more technologies will also help eliminate the problem of extremely fast research , as someone already mentioned earlier. Something that I might suggest would be multiple UUs for the various civs.... perhaps 1 UU and an extra UU that must be researched first.
Playing an extremely long game like this one needs to have many fun factors to make the player want to continue. If you are playing as the Greeks , for example , their unit unique is only useful for a part of the beginning of the game, and then gets replaced by stronger units. That kind of takes away from gameplay because that specific civ is essentially just like the others and doesnt have much to distinguish itself.
I could see this working well with the Albanians. In ancient times they could have perhaps an Illyrian warrior, then during the middle ages researching "Guerilla Cavalry Tactics" allows them to build Light Guerilla Cavalry as opposed to knights.
Come to think of it , if each static civilization had UUs for 3 of the 7 eras in the mod , it would add more of a purpose to choosing a specific civilization and keep gameplay much more fun.
My migrations idea would be something very interesting that has never (at least I dont think) been done before in a mod. It creates adventure and excitement: barbarians suddenly occupying your lands trying to establish a foothold in the region, and when they eventually do, they become a static civ that you can have relations with.
Adding more technologies will also help eliminate the problem of extremely fast research , as someone already mentioned earlier. Something that I might suggest would be multiple UUs for the various civs.... perhaps 1 UU and an extra UU that must be researched first.
Playing an extremely long game like this one needs to have many fun factors to make the player want to continue. If you are playing as the Greeks , for example , their unit unique is only useful for a part of the beginning of the game, and then gets replaced by stronger units. That kind of takes away from gameplay because that specific civ is essentially just like the others and doesnt have much to distinguish itself.
I could see this working well with the Albanians. In ancient times they could have perhaps an Illyrian warrior, then during the middle ages researching "Guerilla Cavalry Tactics" allows them to build Light Guerilla Cavalry as opposed to knights.
Come to think of it , if each static civilization had UUs for 3 of the 7 eras in the mod , it would add more of a purpose to choosing a specific civilization and keep gameplay much more fun.
Son of Moose
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Grallon
Thank you so much for the attached spreadsheet.
I have downloaded it and will examine it more closely tomorrow (as it is now getting a bit late here).
Indeed .... a period that imho seems to have been sadly neglected so far in the Civ franchise.
This sounds EXTREMELY interesting and I would MOST DEFINITELY like to learn aLOT MORE about it.
So many people have created their own ultra-epic mods featuring certain minor variations. With all due respect (and not meaning to belittle or insult anyone
), it would be great if everyone (or almost everyone) with an interest in playing such an ultra-epic mod could unite behind a single mod (maybe the LITTLE mod) so that a suitably qualified multi-disciplinary team could be established in order to adequately undertake such an ambitious mod.
This type of mod will MOST DEFINITELY require prolonged and sustained action from talented programmers (to implement the gameplay rule changes) and graphic artists (in order to design the new buildings and improvements that will adorn the cities and their surrounds).
Thank you so much for the attached spreadsheet.
I have downloaded it and will examine it more closely tomorrow (as it is now getting a bit late here).
Indeed .... a period that imho seems to have been sadly neglected so far in the Civ franchise.
This sounds EXTREMELY interesting and I would MOST DEFINITELY like to learn aLOT MORE about it.
So many people have created their own ultra-epic mods featuring certain minor variations. With all due respect (and not meaning to belittle or insult anyone
), it would be great if everyone (or almost everyone) with an interest in playing such an ultra-epic mod could unite behind a single mod (maybe the LITTLE mod) so that a suitably qualified multi-disciplinary team could be established in order to adequately undertake such an ambitious mod. This type of mod will MOST DEFINITELY require prolonged and sustained action from talented programmers (to implement the gameplay rule changes) and graphic artists (in order to design the new buildings and improvements that will adorn the cities and their surrounds).
Son of Moose
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Shqype
Indeed .... I fully appreciate this idea. Maybe a suitable compromise would be something like a famine (or locust plague) which would slow down one's food production and (thereby) city growth. Something that does make a short-term difference to one's development without having unduly dire (and devastating) results.
This is an interesting idea as it would actually provide the barbarians with a definitive function (and rationale) .... above being mere pillagers.
Yet another interesting possibility that needs to be further discussed!!
Thank you so much for your input .... please continue!!
Indeed .... I fully appreciate this idea.
Maybe a suitable compromise would be something like a famine (or locust plague) which would slow down one's food production and (thereby) city growth. Something that does make a short-term difference to one's development without having unduly dire (and devastating) results. This is an interesting idea as it would actually provide the barbarians with a definitive function (and rationale) .... above being mere pillagers.
Yet another interesting possibility that needs to be further discussed!!
Thank you so much for your input .... please continue!!
Son of Moose said:...
This type of mod will MOST DEFINITELY require prolonged and sustained action from talented programmers (to implement the gameplay rule changes) and graphic artists (in order to design the new buildings and improvements that will adorn the cities and their surrounds).
I think you should send me your hotmail address by PMandI'll send you that mod - you'll see for yourself the changes I made (too many to document here) - especially concerning the buildings. But you are right - people with talent for graphic editing will be needed. The game as is is definately short of everything necessary to bring the Ancient world alive.
G.
Son of Moose
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Grallon
I have already done this.
THANKS!!
I have already done this.
THANKS!!
Grallon, Looking over your tech chart, I find it intriguing, but either it is not noted, or many of the techs "do nothing" but unlock other techs. I'd like to avoid this if possible. It would be best if every tech did SOMETHING more than just unlock the next tech...That increases the "One More Turn" addictiveness. Perhaps a couple of do nothing techs will be unavoidable in a mod of this size, but I'd prefer it if they all did something! Also it would be best to avoid techs which only do what their name says...for example Slavery which allows...slavery...Instead call it "Forced Labor" which is reached by learning Social Hierarchy, Dynasticism, and Caste System.
Your chart is a little hard to follow also...It makes sense, but at first glance it seems to be a random set of lines...
Your chart is a little hard to follow also...It makes sense, but at first glance it seems to be a random set of lines...
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