Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

It would be best if every tech did SOMETHING more than just unlock the next tech...That increases the "One More Turn" addictiveness

Yes .... this is most definitely a good philosophy to follow where feasible.

Your other comments also appear to be extremely valid in principle .... although I will only be able to examine Grallon's tech chart later on today (as it is currently 00h13 here).

However, I think that a detailed examination of the various techs that could be included in this ultra-epic mod would make an excellent starting point for the development of this proposed mod (especially the Ancient era which would commence the game).

 

[grallon]

Grallon, Looking over your tech chart, I find it intriguing, but either it is not noted, or many of the techs "do nothing" but unlock other techs. I'd like to avoid this if possible. It would be best if every tech did SOMETHING more than just unlock the next tech...That increases the "One More Turn" addictiveness.

Yes you're right - either a new unit or a new building or a new action.

Also it would be best to avoid techs which only do what their name says...for example Slavery which allows...slavery...Instead call it "Forced Labor" which is reached by learning Social Hierarchy, Dynasticism, and Caste System.

Unavoidable in certain cases: such as the religions. For instance the whole concept of Bhuddism doesnt suddenly pop into your head the day you learn to write. It's a derivative of a number of factors. In that regard we need to find a way to extend the conditions under which we discover techs. For buildings you can have other buildings as prereqs, or techs, or a certain # of cities... We need to be able to do something similar with techs themselves. From what I can see the tech XLM only list the bonuses derived from a tech - no prerequisites save for other techs.

Otherwise I personally think it's better to have a specific tech for abstract concepts such as slavery (who would unlock the slavery civic).

Your chart is a little hard to follow also...It makes sense, but at first glance it seems to be a random set of lines...

*shrug* it seem clear enough to me : dark lines are the main prereq - the red ones are the secondary ones



G.

 

[maxpublic]

Regarding the techs, I tried more techs with previous versions of Civ and less with this one. In the long game, techs were few and far apart, yet each one did something interesting. I found this to be far more enjoyable than getting tech #86 in the Renaissance Era, chalking up just another building or improvement or unit to keep track of. Each tech became a milestone of new possibilities, rather than speedbump on the race up the tree.

You might want to think about this approach rather than cramming the tree with new techs that don't do much of anything. Right now I have I grand total of 49 techs - 7 per era, including the Future Era - and every one of 'em does something interesting. They're also a long time in coming, so finally mastering one is a Big Deal(TM).

As for making each civilization unique, instead of throwing in new special units for each era you could instead go for specialties as defined by traits and civics. Think a more SMAC-like approach; no special units there but each 'civ' is very distinct from every other civ. Playing one civ is very different from playing any of the others, making a new game out of an old one every time you change factions.

Max

 

[FexFX]

Grallon, thanks...now the Chart makes more sense...with just theat bit of info...

maxpublic, Interesting ideas...The whole faction thing...make each civ more unique... DeEfinitely a possibility!

As to the Less is More approach...that works fine on normal or even 1000 turn length games...but if we were to just stretch the existing techs out...well they'd all take 7 times longer to research! In the early game this would be intollerable...35 to 42 turns for your first tech on average and then just a few hops up the tree you'd be talking about 140 turns per tech...imagine researching for 140 turns just to get IronWorking...Sure 140 turns of axemen would be interesting in some ways...but with the little tech you'd have at that point after 20-30 turns you'd have all of your cities built up with all available upgrades, and then get to spend 110 turns making Axemen, and waiting for Swordsmen...

For the scale we are pondering...no new techs would be painful...

Or...if we dont stretch things out more, by the year 2000BC we'd be landing on Alpha Centari...

Anything that takes you 20-30 turns to research should be a milestone yes...but if you dont have anything to research then those 20-30 turns feel wasted...

So far I have 30 planned Techs...27 of which come before Theology!

 

[grallon]

Regarding the techs... You might want to think about this approach rather than cramming the tree with new techs that don't do much of anything. Right now I have I grand total of 49 techs - 7 per era, including the Future Era - and every one of 'em does something interesting. They're also a long time in coming, so finally mastering one is a Big Deal(TM).

That's a matter of preferences I suppose. Having lots of tech, even if some don't do anything, gives the player a sensation that things are progressing - as well as adding flavor. Personally I enjoy that. But I agree with you that having key techs which 'revolutionize' each player's game when they are discovered is essential. In my mod for instance - Agriculture is one such milestone (many resources are revealed, you can build settlers & workers, farms, wineries, etc). I think there could be a way to better deal with those 'secondary techs' though. Here I'm thinking of the Paradox game Victoria; where for each main tech you discover you'd get, at the same time, a bunddle of subsidirary techs that derive immediatly from it. Maybe this could be scripted ?

As for making each civilization unique, instead of throwing in new special units for each era you could instead go for specialties as defined by traits and civics. Think a more SMAC-like approach; no special units there but each 'civ' is very distinct from every other civ. Playing one civ is very different from playing any of the others, making a new game out of an old one every time you change factions.

That is very important. Every single Civ game has always had this major flaw: linearity. No matter which civ you choose there's only a flag and a UU to make it different to the others. They all have to go through the same path with the same goal to reach. It gets boring rather quickly.

Another thing the Civilizaton series has never managed is to tie the player's evolution with the environment he starts in. The greeks were great mariners because their country was rather poor and the sea was always near. Similarly those living in the steppes of Asia, a land relaively inauspicious for agriculture, remained hunter-gatherers much longer than other Civs. They also invented the stirrups because they used horses so often.

Anyhow I realise the game isn't a simulator but still I'm sure there are ways to model societal development more accurately than now.



G.

 

[grallon]

Another thing the Civilizaton series has never managed is to tie the player's evolution with the environment he starts in. The greeks were great mariners because their country was rather poor and the sea was always near. Similarly those living in the steppes of Asia, a land relaively inauspicious for agriculture, remained hunter-gatherers much longer than other Civs. They also invented the stirrups because they used horses so often.

Mmm it just occured to me that this could be scripted as well... something along the lines of (and I'm no coder so bear with me):

if X% of water squares are present in the initial city radius

then increase research of maritime techs by X %


Mmm but that would require a new variable to differentiate techs... Maybe with Python ?


G.

 

[maxpublic]

As to the Less is More approach...that works fine on normal or even 1000 turn length games...but if we were to just stretch the existing techs out...well they'd all take 7 times longer to research!

That's kinda the point, and that's exactly what I did. All of my playtests ranged from possible game lengths of 3500 to 6000 turns (although I only played through the last, beating all other players around turn 2500). The techs took a very, very long time to research.

But I don't play "SimLaboratory" - I play Civ. Tech is a tiny part of the game, running in the background 99% of the time. I don't chart my play as "what I do inbetween the last tech I researched and the one that's coming up". I build cities, I micromanage the not-so-smart AI in citizen placement, I construct improvements, I conduct diplomacy, I wage war, I rush to fortify my borders when other civs start massing units on them, I found national philosophies (religions), I clear out jungles, I explore the map...you get the idea. If the race up the tech tree defines your playing experience, then you and I have very, very different playing styles.

In the early game this would be intollerable...35 to 42 turns for your first tech on average and then just a few hops up the tree you'd be talking about 140 turns per tech...imagine researching for 140 turns just to get IronWorking...Sure 140 turns of axemen would be interesting in some ways...but with the little tech you'd have at that point after 20-30 turns you'd have all of your cities built up with all available upgrades, and then get to spend 110 turns making Axemen, and waiting for Swordsmen...

That's precisely the point of a long game - to play in specific periods without having to bother with Civ's tech race. Axemen are around long enough that you can wage a war or three before the unit upgrade is available.

If you want to improve your units quickly and NOT play period gaming, what's the point of lengthening things out? Why not just play the stock game? That's exactly how unmodified civ works.

Or...if we dont stretch things out more, by the year 2000BC we'd be landing on Alpha Centari...

The whole Alpha Centauri thing is a crock anyway. We can't even build a ship to Mars with the tech available in Civ's Modern Era, much less an interstellar vessel.

Anything that takes you 20-30 turns to research should be a milestone yes...but if you dont have anything to research then those 20-30 turns feel wasted...

I'm not sure what you mean here. In ANY version of Civ you're always researching something. But if you're getting a new tech every 20-30 turns, which is what? every half-hour, at most? - I wouldn't be calling that 'epic' gameplay, by any stretch of the imagination. And if the techs do nothing but give you nice, cheery notes, or strain to add some tiny artificial modifier as you continually trip over them, then they aren't worth bothering with in the first place. Might as well just consolidate them into something that's actually useful.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish if you increase the length of the game, yet work to defeat that very process by adding scores of minor techs and a host of trivial unit upgrades. Where's the fun in that?

Max

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

For the scale we are pondering...no new techs would be painful...

Indeed .... one would then just merely be increasingly the number of turns in the game without adding anything to "counterbalance" it. Your examples most certainly eloquently illustrate this point.


Grallon

Here I'm thinking of the Paradox game Victoria; where for each main tech you discover you'd get, at the same time, a bunddle of subsidirary techs that derive immediatly from it. Maybe this could be scripted ?

This sounds a most interesting idea.

Anyhow I realise the game isn't a simulator but still I'm sure there are ways to model societal development more accurately than now.

I certainly also like this concept .... although (I fear) that it could be extremely difficult to implement.


Maxpublic

I build cities, I micromanage the not-so-smart AI in citizen placement, I construct improvements

Yes .... I would see these particular aspects as being vitally important in this ultra-epic mod. There would surely need to be a WHOLE LOT MORE structures to build, improvements to complete and resources to harvest. (Perhaps each of these parameters should have its own associated tech(s)). Otherwise, this ultra-epic game could prove somewhat tedious to play. Imho, there must ALWAYS to something to strive for that can be completed within every (say) six moves.

If the race up the tech tree defines your playing experience, then you and I have very, very different playing styles.

Very true .... but it can somehow (with the use of additional technologies .... possibly linked to new buildings and terrain improvements) be made to complement your playing experience.

If you want to improve your units quickly and NOT play period gaming, what's the point of lengthening things out?

From my personal perspective, I am MOST DEFINITELY strongly in favour of being able to experience the full glory of the Ancient and Classical eras. However, imho, it would be most interesting to be able to make several more (possibly less profound) period-appropriate improvements along the way. I honestly think that this would add immensely to one's immersion in the game. There would seem little doubt that this development would add immeasurably to the depth (and historical reality) of the default game.


MORE BELOW .....

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

But if you're getting a new tech every 20-30 turns, which is what? every half-hour, at most? - I wouldn't be calling that 'epic' gameplay, by any stretch of the imagination.

Well, with all due respect, I do not necessarily totally agree with this viewpoint. I would imagine that a truly "ultra-epic" version of the game should include some additional features to the default version of the game. This imho would form an integral part of the "ultra-epic" experience .... to be able to experience new elements of gameplay that (hopefully) add much extra depth (and nuances) to the game.

Otherwise, the early stages of the game (in particular) could be marked by prolonged periods of relative inactivity .... which would possibly cause most players to "tear their hair out" in frustration and uninstall this mod. However, I agree that there should ALWAYS be an extremely good reason (rationale behind the decision) to add a new tech, building or terrain improvement to the game.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish if you increase the length of the game, yet work to defeat that very process by adding scores of minor techs and a host of trivial unit upgrades. Where's the fun in that?

Yes .... point taken. This is a trap that we should try really hard to avoid .... everything must be FULLY JUSTIFIED and it must be SEAMLESSLY INTEGRATED. Otherwise there could indeed be major problems ....

 

[Son of Moose]

Maybe, from the point of developing (and discussing) the new augmented tech tree, it might be a good idea to divide the various technologies into their appropriate major (and then maybe minor) sub-categories.

For instance (off the top of my head):

Agriculture
Theology
Civics/Governance
Science (including construction and manufacturing)
Military
Commerce
Etc, etc.

A further extrapolation from this principle might be to somehow link the individual technologies appearing within each of these individual categories directly with each other (rather than with seemingly non-related techs appearing in other categories). Certain aspects of the current civ 4 tech tree imho seem rather arbitrary.

Perhaps a player might need to successfully research (say) 40 techs before moving from the Ancient to the Classical era with a set MINIMUM for EACH category. Afaik, this concept would be somewhat similar to the Rise of Nations model. It would be more realistic (historically accurate) but still confer an element of flexibility to the player.

Any thoughts on this idea?

Would anyone like to post their ideas for major (and/or minor) technology categories (groupings)?

 

[maxpublic]

Yes .... I would see these particular aspects as being vitally important in this ultra-epic mod. There would surely need to be a WHOLE LOT MORE structures to build, improvements to complete and resources to harvest.

I think this is the problem right here. For my epic game (as in, 2500 turns is a SHORT game) I want each and every single thing to count, to be a big deal. So every tech is a real milestone, every improvement built is a big step in upgrading a city, and so on. I made techs few and far between, and lengthened the time it takes to build improvements/clear forests/etc. to much longer than in stock civ.

In this sort of game, no action is trivial. They all count and they're all a Really Big Deal. If you hit a period where you're waiting for some specific goal you can just hit the 'End Turn' button twenty or thirty times in a row and then you're back in the action.

My guess is here that you don't see it quite the same way I do. That is, the goal of finally filling out those eight tiles you've charted for city X with farms doesn't give you with a sense of accomplishment. You want new toys on top of the old, whereas I want the old to mean more than they do in regular civ.

If that's the case then I wish you well, 'cuz we're on markedly different paths to similar goals. Which is just fine; in the end everyone will just have more choices in mods.

Max

 

[Willowmound]

Classical:

800BC - 800AD (1600 years)

Divided into 800 x 2 year turns

The classical era should end around 400AD as that is when the Roman Empire collapsed and the Dark Ages (which is the beginning of the Medieval era) began.

That said, I think you are insane and I love it! I am currently playing my first Epic game and have decided it is much better than Normal speed. So I'd definitely be up for pushing the envelope!

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

My guess is here that you don't see it quite the same way I do.

The short answer is possibly "yes" .... for the following reason:

You seem to desire an "unembellished" ultra-epic version of Civ 4 .... where the number of turns are substantially increased WITHOUT the addition of ANY new (extraneous) technologies, buildings or improvements.

In many respects, this option does interest me .... as I am (suprisingly enough) extremely keen to retain the ethos of Vanilla Civ 4 (i.e. no changes merely for the sake of change ). However, I would imagine that your ultra-epic version would require some degree of "rebalancing" wrt build times .... otherwise you would merely be playing an extremely drawn-out version of the default game without any obvious gains.

My (and, seemingly, FexFx's) desire is for an "embellished" ultra-epic version of Civ 4 .... where the number of turns are substantially increased WITH the addition of MANY new (period-appropriate) technologies, buildings or improvements.

I just feel that it would be great to be able to add all these new (appropriate, interesting and challenging) features to the Vanilla game .... provided that this can be achieved with an appropriate level of sensitivity to the ethos of the game. I fully realise that it will constitute a major challenge to maintain the correct balance of the game. In addition, it will require a major and prolonged effort to eventually finish such a monumental mod.

Therefore, in the interim, I might well be interested in playing your version of the "ultra-epic" game as it will seemingly be considerably simpler to implement.

However, I still feel that there just might well be a "Middle Path" between these two seemingly divergent ideals of an ultra-epic scenario.

 

[Son of Moose]

Willowmound

That said, I think you are insane and I love it! I am currently playing my first Epic game and have decided it is much better than Normal speed. So I'd definitely be up for pushing the envelope!

Thank you!!

Well .... somebody once said that there is a fine divide between insanity and genius.

Btw: I think that it would be a good idea to discuss the various eras that could appear in this ultra-epic mod.

 

[Ad Hominem]

Eras

Neolithic 8.000 - 6.000
Chalkolithic 6.000 - 3.000
Bronze 3.000 - 1.200
Archaic 1.200 - 500
Classical 500 - 0
Late Antiquity 0 - 450
Medieval 450 - 1400 (possibly we should split this up to three eras, either Early, High, Late or Dark, Medieval, Late Medieval)
Renaissance 1400 - 1600
Baroque 1600 - 1700
Age of Reason 1700 - 1800
Industrial 1800 - 1900
Modern 1900 - 1945
Information era 1945 - 2050

I am unsure about the modern eras, but someone will probably provide with more fitting definitions.

What do you think?

BTW about the ongoing discussion

I am greatly enjoying a game with extended turns and research time (900 turns, with research set at 300 and a small increase in tech cost accross the board) BUT at times it does indeed become tedious to wait for 80 turns to be able to upgrade a unit. Having said that, I believe it is vital to drastically epxand the tech tree, but try to keep the number of units reasonable. Meaning, it's rather silly to have an upgrade line with 12-15 upgrades, but it would be interesting to have 8 or 10. Also, such a mod could incorporate lots of flavour units (when those become available - I bet it's not going to hapen anythime soon) and/or several UUs per faction (spanning through the eras).

It's a colossal project, nevertheless. I hope we'll finish it sometime within the next year or so

 

[maxpublic]

You seem to desire an "unembellished" ultra-epic version of Civ 4 .... where the number of turns are substantially increased WITHOUT the addition of ANY new (extraneous) technologies, buildings or improvements.

Yep, that's pretty much right on the money.

otherwise you would merely be playing an extremely drawn-out version of the default game without any obvious gains.

The gain is that you can actually spend more than a few dozen turns in any one era - "period gaming", I call it. So you can have several wars with neighboring powers using the same units before moving on (and up) to new units. And, as I mentioned before, every accomplishment is a major milestone.

I fully realise that it will constitute a major challenge to maintain the correct balance of the game. In addition, it will require a major and prolonged effort to eventually finish such a monumental mod.

That is an understatement. I'm currently working on a mod called "After The Holocaust", which pretty much has to rewrite most of the xml files from the ground up. As with just about every other game I've ever modded, by the time I finish, playtest, and put the mod up for distribution I'll probably never, ever want to see Civ again. ;-)

Your mod is about the same scale - when I said "good luck", I really meant it. There's modding, and then there's "stark raving lunacy".

Therefore, in the interim, I might well be interested in playing your version of the "ultra-epic" game as it will seemingly be considerably simpler to implement.

I put it away to work on my current effort, which I'm more interested in (parts of it; others I ripped up to make the new files). Having played SMAC again over the summer, I found Civ 4 to be, well, dull. So I'm trying to turn it into something new and interesting.

(For whatever reason, no version of Civ has ever come close to matching SMAC. Playing SMAC before playing Civ was a mistake.)

I'll be eager to see what you do, simply out of modder's curiosity. It's always fascinating how others change the game, even if you yourself never actually use the changes.

Max

 

[Son of Moose]

Ad Hominem

Thank you so much for your list of suggested eras.

Would Archaic roughly correspond to the Iron Age (which supposedly followed the Bronze AGE)?

I quite like the idea of having a greater number of eras in this proposed ultra-epic mod .... so that the in-game transitions (although largely cosmetic in nature) are far more frequent than the currently suggested several hundred turns apart (i.e. they would now be much closer to that occuring in the default game). This should (hopefully) provide the player with a greater ongoing sense of achievement.

Perhaps we can receive some more submissions in this regard.

Having said that, I believe it is vital to drastically epxand the tech tree, but try to keep the number of units reasonable

Yes .... I think that the incredibly intense computing (both processor and memory) demands of Civ 4 would force one to try to keep the number of individual units (appearing on the map at any one time) at a "reasonable" level.

I must admit that I am more in favour of new technologies, buildings, aesthetic (cultural) structures and resources rather than new units per se. However, I would certainly not have a major objection if someone proposed a few new units to fill any obvious holes that might appear in the expanded game.

It's a colossal project, nevertheless. I hope we'll finish it sometime within the next year or so

Yes .... so do I.

This is why we really need to assemble a multi-disciplinary team of programmers and graphic artists in order to implement these major necessary changes.

 

[Willowmound]

I like Ad Hominem's eras!

I agree the Medieval should be split into three; my suggestion would be Dark Ages, High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages.

 

[Son of Moose]

Maxpublic

Thank you for another detailed reply .... I hope that you will not totally desert us!!

The gain is that you can actually spend more than a few dozen turns in any one era - "period gaming", I call it. So you can have several wars with neighboring powers using the same units before moving on (and up) to new units. And, as I mentioned before, every accomplishment is a major milestone.

As a point of interest, are the default build speeds largely left intact (in order to permit you to experience several wars within one era)? I would imagine that this process (of fighting several wars) would (naturally) produce a fairly high attrition rate with the need to keep on producing new "replacement" units.

If so .... I certainly agree that this would present one with a highly enjoyable and challenging gameplay experience.

That is an understatement. I'm currently working on a mod called "After The Holocaust", which pretty much has to rewrite most of the xml files from the ground up.

Indeed .... this is precisely why we will require the services of a group of (preferably) experienced and highly talented modders (programmers, graphic artists, etc). Maybe some of the modders who have already completed their mods for Civ 4 (TAM readily comes to mind) might be prepared to help us incorporate the relevant portions of their completed mods into this ultra-epic mod.

For whatever reason, no version of Civ has ever come close to matching SMAC.

Although I am not a "hard core" SciFi buff, I am not against the idea of expanding the gameplay somewhat beyond the default completion date of 2050 AD. (Indeed, my initial schema suggests a completion date of 2200 AD). However, I fully realise that SMAC does contain several gameplay features that are probably totally incompatible with the Civ franchise.

I'll be eager to see what you do, simply out of modder's curiosity. It's always fascinating how others change the game, even if you yourself never actually use the changes.

Thank you!!

I would value any further suggestions that you might have for the LITTLE mod .... even if this mod does not exactly represent your own vision for an ultra-epic Civ 4 mod. (Maybe you can "play Devil's Advocate" in this regard).

 

[Son of Moose]

Willowmound

Thank you for the additional suggestion!!

We are indeed slowly but surely already making some progress with this proposed mod.