Possible collaborative project: Truly Heroic Mod

[Son of Moose]

Shqype and FexFX

Wow .... we do seem to be having an extremely animated three-way conversation here!!!

But it is great if we are able to resolve some of these important issues!!


FexFX

I totally agree...

GREAT!!

Now we must just (hopefully) agree on how best to implement this more "hard-core" warfare.

Remember .... with all our additions (which are great) we have already somewhat altered the balance of the default game. Certainly the individual (well-developed) city is now relatively much more important than it is in Vanilla Civ 4.

My point is that this somehow needs to be reflected in the combat (and defence) side of the game. However, I freely admit that I am not really sure as how best to reflect this new reality.

 

[Shqype]

2695 turns = 6.1 times longer.
a Doubled tech chart still makes techs take 3 times monger at least...which may be acceptable for certain techs...but not for all.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this ...

 

[Son of Moose]

Shqype

Far be it for me to reply on FexFX's behalf but I think that he is referring to the fact that the Ancient era techs might still be a bit further apart than the average three-fold difference.

However, as I stated above, it might be possible to balance this effect by more intensive early building (of structures and/or units).

I fully realise that this is a most important and somewhat worrying issue.

 

[Shqype]

In my opinion one of the easiest place to put more techs is in the beginning. Even if all of these techs do not "do anything" except lead to a tech (possibly pre-existing) that does "do something" , it would still work to expand the tech tree and make "action" occur every so often.

 

[Son of Moose]

Shqype

Yes .... this might well be a possible solution to the problem!!

I would be most interested in hearing whether FexFX has any definitive ideas or solutions about this idea.

However, I suppose that it might be best if it is somehow possible to link something (no matter how potentially minor) to each of these these new techs.

In the end, it boils down to one's philosophy regarding these early techs which actually elevate one's civilization from the swamps and/or the caves (which imho is an extremely profound consideration) ....

So far FexFX is doing a GREAT job with these techs and has MOST DEFINITELY added great value to this early primordial period in human history.

 

[FexFX]

Actually, if you look at the tree I have made that is EXACTLY what I have done.
90% of all the new techs I have proposed ceom before Steel.
Every new tech allows something more than just another tech.
I have concentrated on the early game because it is the one getting the most stretch.

I know people want more New era techs as well, but honestly those may be a bad idea.
For example the last 150-200 turns of the game take place during the same years as a normal length game! 1 Year per turn is as slow as you can go!
Where the Ancient era has gome from 60 turns to 1200 turns in the proposed timeline! Even in the new timeline its 1050 turns!! Think about that...The ancient era is 17.5 TIMES longer than normal! and the end game is the SAME length as it always was!!

The more I think about it...
The more I become convinced that this timeline may be unreasonable because of these ratios.

Honestly...you will be spending 1/3 of the game in the pre 1000bc era! Does that really sound like a workable game?

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

I have concentrated on the early game because it is the one getting the most stretch.

Indeed and (for the sake of clarity and forward planning) it is always a good idea to start at the beginning.

I know people want more New era techs as well, but honestly those may be a bad idea

I must admit that I too have mixed feelings on this. However, if we do eventually decide to follow this path, the game SUPREME RULER 2010 (which I beta tested) has a really comprehensive list of technologies for the "near future" era.

The ancient era is 17.5 TIMES longer than normal! and the end game is the SAME length as it always was!!

Yes .... however it must be remembered that the entire Civ franchise largely pays lip service to anything before or during the Medieval era. This imho is really unbalanced and totally at variance with human history .... although, then again, I must admit that we should possibly be a little careful of the possibility of overcorrecting this imbalance.

It is a very tricky business!!

Honestly...you will be spending 1/3 of the game in the pre 1000bc era! Does that really sound like a workable game?

If you put it like that ....

However, it would be great if we could somehow manage to impart a genuine sense of excitement, wonder and achievement as one's single settler (or group of settlers really) and warrior/scout/whatever manage to evolve from a totally primitive and nomadic existence and slowly start climbing the rungs of the ladder of civilization ....

However, just maybe, it could (or should) well be done over a shorter period.

Believe me, I do share your extremely valid concerns .... but I am really hoping that there is a suitable solution to the problem other than lopping off (say) 4000 years from the beginning of the game. Nevertheless, I do acknowledge that this might end up as a necessity.

 

[FexFX]

Here are some more reasonable timelines:
500*6 = 3000 years
300*5 = 1500 Years
250*2 = 500 Years
250*2 = 500 Years
175*2 = 350 Years
80*1 = 80 Years
120*1 = 120 years
======
1675 turns = 6050 years = 4000bc - 2050ad

500*6 = 3000 years
500*3 = 1500 Years
500*1 = 500 Years
500*1 = 500 Years
350*1 = 350 Years
80*1 = 80 Years
120*1 = 120 years
======
2550 turns = 6050 years = 4000bc - 2050ad

600*5 = 3000 years
500*3 = 1500 Years
500*1 = 500 Years
500*1 = 500 Years
350*1 = 350 Years
80*1 = 80 Years
120*1 = 120 years
======
2650 turns = 6050 years = 4000bc - 2050ad

I think this is about as long as we dare go.
Anythign beyond this and we end up risking the Ancient era taking up the majority of the game. Already the modern era is becomming a blip.

Personally I favor the 2550 turn game as the eras are mostly balanced until the late game.

Tho there is an appeal to the 2650 turn game which offers the Anchient era a little longer to grow without becomming burdensome.

The question is how long should an era be? By your original proposal, and even by the previous proposal, the Ancient era was longer than an epic game, and in your proposal longer by DOUBLE!

In my proposals, every era before industrial is longer than a normal game and a tad shorter than an epic game. In 2550 turns it would end up 4.65 times longer overall than a normal game.

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

I must admit that I am not totally attached to any specific length of turns in the game.

Rather, I am more attached to the concept of suitably elongating (prolonging) the pre-modern eras so that there is a greater sense of historical balance in the game. (The fact that I am rather partial to the Ancient and Medieval periods notwithstanding ).

I MOST DEFINITELY highly respect your growing stature and experience as a Civ 4 modder (I have been following your thread at the Apolyton forum ) and will certainly follow your guidance in this regard.

I would certainly not wish for the development of a hideously tedious and boring mod However, I hope that we can still manage to complete a suitably epic mod that will permit us to "flesh out" EACH era so that the player will be able to experience a deep sense of involvement throughout the game.

Here is another possible compromise:

Just as your other mod featured TWO gamelengths .... maybe LITTLE can also feature two variants:

DEFAULT LITTLE with seemingly optimally balanced tech and build times

BIG LITTLE with seemingly prolonged tech (but preferably not) building times for a really slow and immersive game

 

[Finarfin]

I've been following this discussion and find this mod concept extremely interesting. However, as a player, I would not like to see any one particular era become the primary focus of the game. If I wanted to do that I would play Age of Empires or something. My goal is to play a game of truly epic proportions which gives you the ability to enjoy each era more than the default game does. In fact, I think it is the Modern era that gets the short end of the stick as things stand now. I've been exclusively playing dearmad's Slower Tech+Balance mod since it stretches everything out. I really can't imagine playing a game of Civilization where the Modern era stays the same length but the prior eras are 3+ times the length they are now!

 

[FexFX]

FexFX

I must admit that I am not totally attached to any specific length of turns in the game.

Rather, I am more attached to the concept of suitably elongating (prolonging) the pre-modern eras so that there is a greater sense of historical balance in the game. (The fact that I am rather partial to the Ancient and Medieval periods notwithstanding ).

I MOST DEFINITELY highly respect your growing stature and experience as a Civ 4 modder (I have been following your thread at the Apolyton forum ) and will certainly follow your guidance in this regard.

I would certainly not wish for the development of a hideously tedious and boring mod However, I hope that we can still manage to complete a suitably epic mod that will permit us to "flesh out" EACH era so that the player will be able to experience a deep sense of involvement throughout the game.

Here is another possible compromise:

Just as your other mod featured TWO gamelengths .... maybe LITTLE can also feature two variants:

DEFAULT LITTLE with seemingly optimally balanced tech and build times

BIG LITTLE with seemingly prolonged tech (but preferably not) building times for a really slow and immersive game

Actually I've been considering this all along...with whatever time length was proposed in here being the "Epic" flavor And then offering "Normal" and "Quick" flavors as mathematical variants on "Epic". However, Normal and Quick may not work properly for us in this case...

The Modern era is unchanged in all of these models.

The only thing that would really change in any of these models is length of pre-modern eras.

So simple math may not work so well.

I am not against this, however I am not sure it will work.

If you wanted, we could aim for the "normal" game to be 2550 turns, the "quick" game to be 1675 turns, and the "epic" game would then be:

750*4 = 3000 years
750*2 = 1500 Years
500*1 = 500 Years
500*1 = 500 Years
350*1 = 350 Years
80*1 = 80 Years
120*1 = 120 years
======
3050 turns = 6050 years = 4000bc - 2050ad

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

I am not against this, however I am not sure it will work.

Well .... I am sure that we still have some time to experiment with the various possible timeframes and gamelength variants.

I really like the idea of three (or maybe four) variants as you have suggested.

 

[FexFX]

I've been following this discussion and find this mod concept extremely interesting. However, as a player, I would not like to see any one particular era become the primary focus of the game. If I wanted to do that I would play Age of Empires or something. My goal is to play a game of truly epic proportions which gives you the ability to enjoy each era more than the default game does. In fact, I think it is the Modern era that gets the short end of the stick as things stand now. I've been exclusively playing dearmad's Slower Tech+Balance mod since it stretches everything out. I really can't imagine playing a game of Civilization where the Modern era stays the same length but the prior eras are 3+ times the length they are now!

Precicely my concern.
Personally I think We have hit a threshold with 2550.
Everythign Post Classical is 1 turn per year...
and then prior to that the eras are at least the same length.
Unfortunately there is no reasonable way to lengthen the modern and future eras since they are actually short historically speaking.

Perhaps when the SDK comes out someone will figure a way to switch calendars, but for now there is no way to go from years to seasons or months without doing so for the entire game!
Ideally we would be able to change to seasons for the industrial era, and then switch to months for the modern/future eras...

Currently this is not possible.

 

[Son of Moose]

Finarfin

Welcome and thank you for your post!!!

Possibly (from what I have read on the topic) and from playing Civ 3, the major problem with the Modern era is that there is not ALL that much to do.

Maybe we can still add some more new technologies and buildings to this era that might succeed in "shaking things up" a bit. If there is a need to prolong this era (due to the possibility of adding a host of interesting new features .... refer above) then it might be feasible to try to expand it.

[Note to FexFX .... is it possible to introduce half years (i.e. 1999.5) to the game?]

EDIT

Question answered above.

 

[FexFX]

Finarfin

Welcome and thank you for your post!!!

Possibly (from what I have read on the topic) and from playing Civ 3, the major problem with the Modern era is that there is not ALL that much to do.

Maybe we can still add some more new technologies and buildings to this era that might succeed in "shaking things up" a bit. If there is a need to prolong this era (due to the possibility of adding a host of interesting new features .... refer above) then it might be feasible to try to expand it.

[Note to FexFX .... is it possible to introduce half years (i.e. 1999.5) to the game?]

EDIT

Question answered above.

The other posibility is that we COULD just go onward and upward with a TRUE future era...
But for now I'd like to concentrate on balancing and expanding what is there.

I am going to target 500 turns per era up to industrial.
whci means I need to make each tech branch feel like it lasts about 8 times longer up to that point.

Now you see why I am front loading the heck out of the tree!

 

[Son of Moose]

FexFX

The other posibility is that we COULD just go onward and upward with a TRUE future era...

As previously stated, this is most certainly an option and one that might well appeal to the legion of SMAC/X fans. However, as you so wisely say, it would certainly make most sense to complement augment and expand upon material that already exists in Vanilla Civ 4. After all, one already has a fine template upon which to work.

Perhaps once we have well and truly completed this process and thereby (hopefully) acquired a definitive "flavour" for the LITTLE mod, it should actually be fairly simple to progress into a true Future era.

means I need to make each tech branch feel like it lasts about 8 times longer up to that point.

Okay .... lets try this approach and see how it goes.

We can always perform further "tweaking" at a later date. In fact, it might well be a good idea to perform a fairly quick audit of all the eras regarding possible buildings that can be added to the game according to era. Additional associated techs should follow these buildings as it should be feasible to link (at least) one new tech to each new building.

So far (afaik) we are well-advanced for the Military buildings as well as several of the Commercial buildings. We have also highlighted some of the Ancient and Classical era Medical buildings. So what else do we need to consider:

Educational buildings
Governmental buildings
Agricultural buildings
Entertainment buildings
Wonders

Whew .... it just kinda goes on and on and on .... but as long as we are making slow but steady progress with this massive project.

 

[FexFX]

Okay...This is gonna look ugly, But I think You will understand what this is...This is our current stats on the tech chart.

(41) New (28)Changed (58)Unchanged (2)Considering


ancient 25 - 147% 13 4 0
classical 6 - 50% 5 7 0
medieval 7 - 53% (61%) 3 10 1
Renaissance 2 - 14%(21%) 5 9 1
Industrial 1 - 7% 1 13 0
Modern 0 - 0% 1 14 0
Future 0 - 0% 0 1 0

Okay that was VERY ugly.

Here I will include the revised chart which is now broken down by era and has these stats at the bottom.

note that the Ancient era has the most new techs at 147% of its original size.
Classical and Medieval are both around 50% larger...and then it drops off quickly.

 

[Finarfin]

Finarfin

Welcome and thank you for your post!!!

Possibly (from what I have read on the topic) and from playing Civ 3, the major problem with the Modern era is that there is not ALL that much to do.

My problem with the Modern era is that it seems to me that it also goes by too quickly, in that no sooner do I get all the nice war machines but the game ends. I'm not necessarily interested in new additions to the era, but simply like the idea of having more time for every nation to get modernized and have large scale conflicts with modern units. Of course, that requires computer opponents to actually upgrade their units and use them intelligently but that's a whole other issue. Regardless, I'm interested in whatever you do with this as it is a worthy project and I am sure I will enjoy the results in whatever form they take.

 

[FexFX]

well...
you realize you can just turn off the time victory condition right?

 

[Brancaleone]

But its no fun playing if you dont have anything new to get - new wonders, new units, etc. Modern era is my favorite, but it goes too quickly. I look foward to this mod as well, but playing 500 turns in ancient era, and only 80 in industrial... Ill be able to make war against everyone in stone age, but only one or two wars in industrial.

BTW, i didnt read the entire topic. How many new nations, techs, improvements and wonders will this mod have?