Post patch.. SE worth it??

[NaZdReG]

hermit,

not bashing at all actually. i know you can pull it off

I went back and realized I lost by trying to beeline towards machinery rather than other more useful techs. the fact that I put myself in a losing position is as much to do with lack of micro as it is to lack of time playing as china. I also play a CE nearly every game, and have mixed results from SE games.

I put this out there to get YOUR opinion specifically related to the pyramids. if I had gone the oracle MC route I'd have been in a MUCH better position I believe. there was marble nearby so I could have gone that route. china being non philo though it makes it really tough to pull that off in any reasonable amount of time.

I think I'm going to go back to right before I got the pyramids and give police state a shot. thanks for the suggestion

NaZ

 

[johnny_rico]

Regarding the pyramids for representation, I am far more concerned with the happiness for my cities allowing them to grow as much as I need so I can whip an army/infrastructure. The extra beakers are a nice boon, but secondary. Gandhi is the best because you can switch back and forth between slavery/caste system. Whip, regrow, starve the cities under caste system to gain the most out of the philosophical trait. The dynamics available allow you to adapt to the climate of the game pretty easily and eventually control that climate.

In every game I play, I try to evaluate if I can run a SE. Only time I don't even think about running it is with a financial leader.

 

[Dirk1302]

^^Indeed the happiness from representation is nice but in an SE the culture slider does a fine job. I agree about switching between Slavery and Caste system, it feels so flexible.Sometimes though i have a feeling that i return too slavery to often,maybe better to build some workshops instead of farming everything.

 

[NaZdReG]

my biggest concern with the SE is still that interm before you get to caste system. the time to build the libraries then run the specialists... but before you get 3-4 cities up with 2 scientists a piece your tech pace is seriously damaged.

NaZ

 

[johnny_rico]

^^Indeed the happiness from representation is nice but in an SE the culture slider does a fine job. I agree about switching between Slavery and Caste system, it feels so flexible.Sometimes though i have a feeling that i return too slavery to often,maybe better to build some workshops instead of farming everything.

Drama is not usually on my list priorities. In a SE, I usually play a very aggresive role and don't have control over the culture slider for quite some time.

If I'm spiritual, I switch back and forth for a large majority of the game. I think the math has been done here where whipping is in fact, less effective, than natural progressive growth and building. To hell with those diminishing returns, I want it now!

my biggest concern with the SE is still that interm before you get to caste system. the time to build the libraries then run the specialists... but before you get 3-4 cities up with 2 scientists a piece your tech pace is seriously damaged.

Personally, I haven't had too many problems there. Early on, I've got a city designated as a finance center. Some city needs funds early in an SE, for the reason you state. No doubt I'll find a better one later on, and have no qualms paving over early hamlets and villages if that original cash cow city is better suited for a different task.

It's not even a guarantee I have all my libraries up and going by CoL. I stay focused on units. Barracks are nice, monuments a higher priority if no early religion was founded. Since I'm looking to build the pyramids, I can't afford to be building libraries, I am already preparing for an ancient war. I can whip the library when needed.

Also, what techs are you worried about? You don't need much to fund a SE. Two cities, maybe three. Agriculture, wheel, mining, and BW. Early on, you only need a couple of decent commerce squares to keep research at a decent rate. Besides, the AI is teching faster than you which means most techs you are going for are already cheaper because 1 or more AIs already know them.

I would go into desired number of cities, but that is largely circumstancial. I've pulled off the pyramids and an early war only building two cities. However, as pointed out by futurehermit earlier in the thread, sometimes you start off real isolated and are forced to REX. To me, that is the worst possible scenario because I like an early war when trying to start up a SE.

 

[NaZdReG]

thats how I ate it actually (ai REXd like crazy surrounding me). I started smack dab in the center of the continent. surrounded by greece, zulu, egypt. early war with egypt took 3 of their cities to capture Iron and a few other resources. zulu and greece attacked simultaneously. greece had a few eles and some cats, zulu had impis,swords, cats. not so good for me . new AI is a lot better I think. made the decision to hard build the pyramids a risky one.. even with stone.

NaZ

 

[johnny_rico]

thats how I ate it actually (ai REXd like crazy surrounding me). I started smack dab in the center of the continent. surrounded by greece, zulu, egypt. early war with egypt took 3 of their cities to capture Iron and a few other resources. zulu and greece attacked simultaneously. greece had a few eles and some cats, zulu had impis,swords, cats. not so good for me . new AI is a lot better I think. made the decision to hard build the pyramids a risky one.. even with stone.

NaZ

I went back and read the original post. You were playing as Chinese and went for machinery. Not to rain on your parade, but I'm not a fan of the cho'k's. I think they are too expensive for what they give you. Double bummer as you were beelining for a unit, that could counter very little that was sent your way.

Anyway, I guess another point worth mentioning is with respect to military. Quantity, not quality, in the SE. Once the SE is up and running, I like to stick to military techs but I build the cheap units, scatter them somewhat recklessly, and then upgrade the ones that survive with the spoils of war. I don't build too many expensive units since hammers are usually scarce.

btw, alex and shaka both on your continent is a bad draw, especially when you're the meat in that sandwich.

 

[futurehermit]

my biggest concern with the SE is still that interm before you get to caste system. the time to build the libraries then run the specialists... but before you get 3-4 cities up with 2 scientists a piece your tech pace is seriously damaged.

NaZ

It's all about feel, something that comes with more games played. I usually will run the research slider at 100% until alphabet and then drop it to 0%. There really isn't much you need asap once you hit alphabet (NOTE: I NEVER run caste system in spec econ. 2 scientists/city + GL + representation is sufficient prior to markets/guilds coming online). The exception is literature, which you need for GL. However, the AI tends to put this off so you're usually ok. Please note that I will use the GE from the pyramids on the GL so that I don't have to tie up one of my cities building it (although if I have marble and I high-production city I will consider using the GE asap on the parthenon and then build the GL manually).

Basically, when I go for the pyramids it looks something like this (assuming stone in 2nd city):

-Start with worker
-Worker develops food and hammer tiles
-chop settler at size 2. start pyramids
-settler 2nd city, start worker after monument (if necessary)
-hook up cities, stone when borders pop (if necessary)
-chop pyramids with 2 workers while 2nd city builds 2nd settler.

This will give me 3 total cities + the pyramids.

At that point I will starting cranking military. Situationally, I'll use police state to do this. Once an initial army is produced, I'll start libraries and assigning specialists (going back to representation if police state initially).

Don't worry about falling a bit behind in tech initially since once your econ is up and running, you will start to fly past the AI.

The nice thing about the SE is that you can get conquered cities up and running in no time. All it requires is some food tile upgrades and a chopped library: voila. Can't say the same for cottages.

So, yeah: 1) Pyramids + 2 extra cities; 2) Army asap of swords/axes/spears (mix in swords once you trade alpha for iron); 3) libraries and scientists; 4) Take out closest neighbour setting up libraries as you go; 5) Be first to liberalism with largest empire

 

[Galileo44]

2 scientists/city + GL + representation is sufficient prior to markets/guilds coming online).

(my bold)

Although you said earlier that SE if fine without Pyramids, you then said here that you don't need Caste System or anything else because the SE has Representation.

What is your position, SE fine on lower levels without Pyramids and difficult if not impossible on say Emperor and above without them?

Alternatively, you could be lucky and have you neighbor AI build them for you. Now you know target #1 for your axes/swords/spears!

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack your position, I just want to know from an expert how to better my game.

 

[futurehermit]

(my bold)

Although you said earlier that SE if fine without Pyramids, you then said here that you don't need Caste System or anything else because the SE has Representation.

What is your position, SE fine on lower levels without Pyramids and difficult if not impossible on say Emperor and above without them?

Alternatively, you could be lucky and have you neighbor AI build them for you. Now you know target #1 for your axes/swords/spears!

EDIT: I'm not trying to attack your position, I just want to know from an expert how to better my game.

Well, I generally play SE with the pyramids. If you don't have pyramids that is still ok (as others have pointed out), especially if you are philosophical. This latter approach is really driven by lightbulbed research as a result of increased #s of GP. If you don't have philosophical or the pyramids I believe you are better off going with CE, but that's just me. If you have both, cha-ching.

This applies to all levels of difficult up to Monarch. Above Monarch, I would say it is very difficult to build pyramids (emperor, sometimes ok, situationally). However, this is because the dynamic of the game changes imo. I don't see higher-level games as "normal" games because the insane AI bonuses alter what the player has to/can do to win.

I will never run caste system because slavery is too powerful to give up and has huge synergy with SE. The exception is if you're spiritual and can zip in and out of slavery and caste system (as others have pointed out). However, even when I'm spiritual I'm usually too lazy to do this (I don't use spiritual to its maximum potential because I'm not a super-anal player when it comes to micromanaging every detail ).

So, in short, I didn't mean to sound contradictory. SE without pyramids is still viable, it's just that I personally don't usually go SE without pyramids. Without pyramids you may need caste system to keep up in tech (if that is your goal), but I can't speak to this since I don't usually play this way.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Personally, I haven't had too many problems there. Early on, I've got a city designated as a finance center.

Exactly. I usually have a couple money cities in a SE. I guess you can call it hybrid, I call it covering my back.

 

[Dirk1302]

This applies to all levels of difficult up to Monarch. Above Monarch, I would say it is very difficult to build pyramids (emperor, sometimes ok, situationally). However, this is because the dynamic of the game changes imo. I don't see higher-level games as "normal" games because the insane AI bonuses alter what the player has to/can do to win.

That's why i was experimenting with the several gambits to pyramids at emperor because i don't think you can finish pyramids in time without stone, especially not while also building a second city. I think it can be pulled of most of the time with one city at emperor level (at huge cost of normal development though). Above Emperor all the gambits will fall flat i think.

Drama is not usually on my list priorities. In a SE, I usually play a very aggresive role and don't have control over the culture slider for quite some time.

If I'm spiritual, I switch back and forth for a large majority of the game. I think the math has been done here where whipping is in fact, less effective, than natural progressive growth and building. To hell with those diminishing returns, I want it now!
SE.

I'm not concerned about the whipping. I'm more of a builder type of player. On average i fight one war in a game to get the number of cities up to 15-20. For the rest of the game i'm peacefullly building infra and developing shrines.

So the concern for me is the research drop when going back to slavery not the whipping itself which i tend to do for oxford university but also for rounds of libraries, theaters, markets etc for underdeveloped cities with no hammers.
whipping is great here but i miss the 10 scientists in my capital and other big cities for 5 turns.

Personally i like drama very much, it gives me the slider, theaters, the LB to philosophy, it's cheap and very tradable (for money) once i have currency because the ai civs don't go for drama early.

 

[futurehermit]

^^actually, i've changed my mind on drama as a result of reading some threads on these forums. i used to always put it off, but now i've been going for a sub-1AD lightbulb of philosophy via drama. it's highly effective and, you're right, the ai does not prioritize drama at all so it's a very tradeable tech.

 

[Dirk1302]

^^actually, i've changed my mind on drama as a result of reading some threads on these forums. i used to always put it off, but now i've been going for a sub-1AD lightbulb of philosophy via drama. it's highly effective and, you're right, the ai does not prioritize drama at all so it's a very tradeable tech.

Indeed, an early philosophy LB is very powerful. I only go for col at this point when confucianism is not founded yet. I need caste system of course but when i have alphabet and literature and the choice is between Col and Drama i find that most of the time using caste system is too early because cities are too small at this point (especially if i've been gambiting to pyramids). If i have marble or an engineer then i go for Col or Drama before literature.

 

[acidsatyr]

you title is wrong obviously. You dont need pyramids for SE, where the hell did this idea originated in the first place??

 

[Galileo44]

You dont need pyramids for SE, where the hell did this idea originated in the first place??

I agree that Pyramids are not neccessary for SE. However, the latest patch made Pyramids harder to get. If doubling the power of an SE for half the game is not nerfing, I don't know what is. The Pyramids literally double (if not more) the research power of an SE from the specialists. (Not counting GPs) I think that the Pyramids are not essential but are very important.

 

[Dirk1302]

you title is wrong obviously. You dont need pyramids for SE, where the hell did this idea originated in the first place??

I'm playing at emperor now and i agree that the cost is indeed too high. I never said that you need Pyramids for SE but it gives a nice boost if you can get it, which usually can be done at Monarch or below. I think an SE is primarily about lightbulbing techs and flexibility though. BTW do you generally go for constitution early?

I agree that Pyramids are not neccessary for SE. However, the latest patch made Pyramids harder to get. If doubling the power of an SE for half the game is not nerfing, I don't know what is. The Pyramids literally double (if not more) the research power of an SE from the specialists. (Not counting GPs) I think that the Pyramids are not essential but are very important.

I don't think Pyramids double research because most of the techs come in with lightbulbing and trading and there are aslo trade routes contibuting independent of representaion. It's dependent on playing style but for me i guess having pyramids speeds up research some 20%.

 

[futurehermit]

Pyramids are not necessary for the SE, but they make it much more powerful. While trading and lightbulbing are certainly a huge part of it, pyramids REALLY enhance your standard teching...

 

[UncleJJ]

How much better is Representation than Hereditary Rule in an early small empire?

HR allows a much larger capital to be run when it produces most of the research and has the best multipliers (academy, library and monastries). It allows other cities to help the capital by sending cheap units to garrison it.

The bonus beakers from Representation are useful but they are mostly spread around the small cities with low multipliers. The +3 happiness is good for most moderate cities but not enough for the capital which has to rely on calendar or religious happiness to grow to its early potential.

 

[johnny_rico]

How much better is Representation than Hereditary Rule in an early small empire?

HR allows a much larger capital to be run when it produces most of the research and has the best multipliers (academy, library and monastries). It allows other cities to help the capital by sending cheap units to garrison it.

The bonus beakers from Representation are useful but they are mostly spread around the small cities with low multipliers. The +3 happiness is good for most moderate cities but not enough for the capital which has to rely on calendar or religious happiness to grow to its early potential.

I'd say the answer to that question is circumstancial and no doubt both civics have their uses with an early small empire. My preference (with the pyramids built running an SE) is for representation. The +3 happiness will probably extend to all cities (small empire). Rare is the start where ivory, gold, silver, or gems are not available (one of them is almost always close by; if you have zero of those, than calendar is a necessity because plantation happiness will be present in abundance). Throw in religion or a wonder; most civs have some other means of happiness (hammams, charismatic, etc).

So, in the early game in said environment, I have yet to have a problem where I've outgrown my happiness limit (on monarch difficulty, where there is an initial +5 happiness cap). If an early war gets too long, HR is a good idea if the WW starts accumulating (not to mention combating the "we long to join our homeland" penalties from cities conquered). Or, it can be whipped away.

Regarding the bonus beakers, all cities have a small multiplier early on except your one city that might have an academy. If we're running 2 scientists under representation, that's 12 beakers, and with a library that becomes 15. 3 beakers * 5 cities (small early empire) is 15 lost beakers a turn running HR instead of REP (I think that is significant in the early game). Plus you're loading up cities with troops instead of roughing someone up. A healthy garrison is a good thing though. I'm lousy at stocking troops in my cities. They get just enough military to not whine about it....one stinkin' warrior or archer, the dregs of the very early game.

What happens under HR if somone declares war and moves in on your turf. You don't want yourself pillaged so you're pulling troops out to defend good tiles and for each removed soldier, you lose +1 happiness which may lead to using the whip or living with some unhappiness until it can be remedied. I think the same unhappiness occurs under REP, and you can whip it away or deal with it for a short while. If some unhappiness occurs and your city is still growing, it's just an excuse to run another specialist which is actually a boon under representation.