[NFP] Post-Update Founder Beliefs

bengalryan9

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I am curious about how the AI chooses founder beliefs after the update. Before the update, the AI always chose the same ones in the same order (warriors monks first, then divine inspiration second, etc). The order has definitely changed now, but I'm wondering if it's still a static order or if the AI will actually choose different ones situationally now. I thought it would be useful for people to share what founder beliefs they have seen the AI choose and in what order since the update so we can figure this out.

In my current game (standard map size, so five religions), I believe the AI chose beliefs in the following order:
1) Choral Music
2) Religious Community
3) Warrior Monks
4) Divine Inspiration
5) Feed the World

Choral Music is a very strong belief to choose, so that's definitely exciting to see the AI take that first. Religious Community second seems like an odd choice. What have you all noticed?
 
Here are the beliefs from my game:

1) Feed the World
2) Jesuit Education (that was me)
3) Choral Music
4) Warrior Monks
5) Divine Inspiration

So 4 out of the 5 are the same as bengalryan's, it looks like they are the ones the AI values more highly. But it does look it's not a static order anymore.
 
I see they got rid of reliquaries (its always the 5th one picked) for choral music.
 
1) Choral Music

This is huge news, if true. I think it’s fair to say that Choral Music is, by far, the most consistent founder belief: not situational like Feed the World or Reliquaries; not gimmicky like Warrior Monks; and far more impactful than the other bonuses the AI tended to leave, like Zen Meditation or Work Ethic.

Unfortunately, I cannot test this because the game is currently busted on Mac (yes, yes, I know, it’s my fault for owning a Mac).

I’d also like to throw into the mix: have they changed their preferences for which Worship Belief they go for? From experience, the usual order would be something like:
Synagogues - Cathedrals - Meeting House - Wat/Gurdwara/Stupa.
The order seemed to vary a bit. But it remained true that the player was essentially left with a choice between Pagodas, Mosques, and the Dar-e Mehr. For me, I was happy with this: if I’m going Religious Victory, the Mosque is the best option anyway; the Dar-e Mehr can end up producing more Faith than the other buildings; and the extra Housing from Pagodas is just generally good.

So it’ll be intriguing to know if they’ve changed their preferences on that. It would be terrifying to find Deity Gandhi picking Mosques, for example, or Russia picking Gurdwaras to help him in the tundra.
 
Forgive me for my noobness here ;-)

Do you guys have an easy way to find out what the other civs chose ? I know you can check the religion tabs, but that will only show you what those who HAVE religions chose, not the other ones, and it won't tell you in what order.

So aside from remembering what they all are and figuring out those that are missing ? you all seem to have a much simpler way of finding the info !

thanks
 
Forgive me for my noobness here ;-)

Do you guys have an easy way to find out what the other civs chose ? I know you can check the religion tabs, but that will only show you what those who HAVE religions chose, not the other ones, and it won't tell you in what order.

So aside from remembering what they all are and figuring out those that are missing ? you all seem to have a much simpler way of finding the info !

thanks

Do you mean pantheons? I don't think there's a way to see that in one place, no. It might show up if you look at the religion in their cities, though. At least, if they have one that's not converted.

But, we're talking about the religion beliefs, so of course you can see those in the religion UI.
 
This is huge news, if true. I think it’s fair to say that Choral Music is, by far, the most consistent founder belief: not situational like Feed the World or Reliquaries; not gimmicky like Warrior Monks; and far more impactful than the other bonuses the AI tended to leave, like Zen Meditation or Work Ethic.

In the end, making Choral Music more popular with the AI is a huge nerf to the player in terms of Religion (it was often the best founder belief and often available) while being a buff to the AI, who often don't advance fast enough through the civic tree and build lots of Holy Sites/Shrines. I'm not too happy about it since it will make me go for a religion even less often than I already do, but it's actually great that the AI makes good use of religion, and they should be rewarded with the best beliefs for getting there early.
 
Do you mean pantheons? I don't think there's a way to see that in one place, no. It might show up if you look at the religion in their cities, though. At least, if they have one that's not converted.

But, we're talking about the religion beliefs, so of course you can see those in the religion UI.

OH OH ok sorry, i really did think you were talking about Pantheons. Of course, choral music is NOT a pantheon. sorry.
 
In the end, making Choral Music more popular with the AI is a huge nerf to the player in terms of Religion (it was often the best founder belief and often available) while being a buff to the AI, who often don't advance fast enough through the civic tree and build lots of Holy Sites/Shrines. I'm not too happy about it since it will make me go for a religion even less often than I already do, but it's actually great that the AI makes good use of religion, and they should be rewarded with the best beliefs for getting there early.

I get what you are saying... I never cared about rushing a religion even when I wanted to found one just because I knew I could still get what I wanted if I was one of the last ones. Still, I like the change because it *should* help make the AI much more competitive if they actually grab one of the stronger beliefs instead of Warrior Monks or Divine Inspiration every time.

AI Peter is the example that comes to mind. He's pretty much guaranteed to be the first to found a religion with his cheap Lavra (in rare cases he might be the second if another AI gets Stonehenge). This always meant he would take Warrior Monks or Divine Inspiration, too beliefs that would do very little for him. Couple this with his tundra bias start and it really crippled Peter's ability to pose a threat in AI hands. If, however, an AI Peter picks first and takes Choral Music (further strengthening his culture game), Feed the World (making him able to actually grow those tundra cities), or Jesuit Education (giving him something to spend all his faith on along with great work slots)... he becomes a lot more formidable.

Interesting that @Kibikus and I got different results, but we need more data!
 
Forgive me for my noobness here ;-)

Do you guys have an easy way to find out what the other civs chose ? I know you can check the religion tabs, but that will only show you what those who HAVE religions chose, not the other ones, and it won't tell you in what order.

So aside from remembering what they all are and figuring out those that are missing ? you all seem to have a much simpler way of finding the info !

thanks

Do you mean pantheons? I don't think there's a way to see that in one place, no. It might show up if you look at the religion in their cities, though. At least, if they have one that's not converted.

But, we're talking about the religion beliefs, so of course you can see those in the religion UI.

Pantheons don't go away nor do they convert if a foreign religion is adopted - so the Pantheon a city has it always the one the owner civ has choosen. That means the religion screen provides that info for any civ you have met; you just have to browse to the city lists until you find one the civ you like to know the Pantheon of. Here is an example - Rome hasn't found a religion, the capital has converted to Dutch Protestantism...but you can still see that they once have picked Divine Spark:

SeeingPantheonChoiceOfAnyCiv.jpg
 
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If, however, an AI Peter picks first and takes Choral Music (further strengthening his culture game), Feed the World (making him able to actually grow those tundra cities), or Jesuit Education (giving him something to spend all his faith on along with great work slots)... he becomes a lot more formidable.

I would so love to see that. One of my favorite AIs and favorite Civs to play as. And you're exactly right, they were really being held back by focussing on Religion and then getting little out of it.
 
I'm going to go for religion even less if choral music isn't an option most of the time. It nerfs Arabia in the player's hands since you get the last prophet (unless you negate the ability by beelining of course). I'm glad at least one of the AIs is going to benefit from religion, but I just wish the beliefs were better balanced overall.
 
Pantheons don't go away nor do they convert if a foreign religion is adopted - so the Pantehon a city has it always the one the owner civ has choosen. That means the religion screen provides that info for any civ you have met; you just have to browse to the city lists until you find one the civ you like to know the Pantheon of. Here is an example - Rome hasn't found a religion, the capital has converted to Dutch Protestantism...but you can still see that they once have picked Divine Spark:

View attachment 556755

But that only works if the city does have a religion. If it doesn't, it won't appear in those lists. But, I think you can mouse over the city ribbon to see the pantheon.
 
If the AI prioritizes Choral Music, I'm never founding a religion again except for Russia/Arabia/Japan. Well, maybe if I can pair Zen Meditation with River Goddess, but Choral Music is just a great belief.

In fact it may be a better idea to not found a religion and hope the AI spreads Choral Music to you so you can build a mini theater square later on with Holy Sites.
 
In fact it may be a better idea to not found a religion and hope the AI spreads Choral Music to you so you can build a mini theater square later on with Holy Sites.

Lately this is how I've been playing my games and I'm afraid there is virtually no upside to founding a religion yourself if the AI does spread to you. The most useful thing about founding a religion is perhaps those 2 Inspirations for founding and having 6+ cities follow your religion, which is pretty damning.
 
Choral Music is great, but I don't think it's the only founder belief worth taking either. As long as I had a shot at Jesuit Education or (situationally) Feed the World I'd still at least consider it. It might even be fun to actually get to play with Warrior Monks for once, heheh. I rarely go out of my way to found one, but I think if I wanted to I could still get something I'd be happy with.

I'm going to go for religion even less if choral music isn't an option most of the time. It nerfs Arabia in the player's hands since you get the last prophet (unless you negate the ability by beelining of course). I'm glad at least one of the AIs is going to benefit from religion, but I just wish the beliefs were better balanced overall.

This was always the funny thing about Arabia's ability - people thought waiting until last cost you all the best beliefs, but it usually didn't. Arabia is definitely stronger on smaller maps though.
 
Lately this is how I've been playing my games and I'm afraid there is virtually no upside to founding a religion yourself if the AI does spread to you. The most useful thing about founding a religion is perhaps those 2 Inspirations for founding and having 6+ cities follow your religion, which is pretty damning.

Well... to be fair... it's also the only way to stop a civ that is running away with RV, expecially if you like to play Huge maps and that civ, as usual, is all the way around the globe where you can't reach them, so can't just destroy them
 
Well... to be fair... it's also the only way to stop a civ that is running away with RV, expecially if you like to play Huge maps and that civ, as usual, is all the way around the globe where you can't reach them, so can't just destroy them

Good point, I never actually considered that. RV is probably the victory the AI is strongest at, too, though it never works out if there is another powerful religious AI.
 
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