posting a save

[ronanp]

hi folks

Have been playing loads of standard maps on warlord level to the point where I always win, to shake it up a bit before I try and levelup I have been playing lots of games with the settings all at random. It's got me to play some small and tiny maps which I had never done before. This game give me 14 AI civs so I guess it's large or huge?

It's 1365, I have recently gone into a small lead score wise and am a few percentage points up in terms of land and population, with 28 cities/ towns. Got some good money in the bank and 184 coming in every turn from other civs. Am about two techs up from the more advanvced group of civs. I have five lux's hooked up. Have sipahi and about to enter industrial age.

Not long out a drawn out war with the Dutch which didn't gain me much and gave me loads of war wearness. The main positive thing it achivied was getting the three civ's on that side of the map to kill loads of each others units meaning I am not really threatened from the south any more. The big boys are to the north.

At the moment I am trying to boust my science and build up infrastructure till my war wearness goes down. As well as building up some more sipahi. But am at a bit of a lost to what to do at that point. Not sure If I want to spend eternity attacking the rest of the world and hold towns which will never really build anything, and on such an big map it will take forever to move troops, anyway. Will probably have a few more small wars to get new resources or more lux and to start my golden era with a sipahi victory. But don't see me finishing game that way.

So any tips espicially for space or UN victory conditions from this point?

Have up loaded a sav. It's civ 3 compleat.

thanks in advance

 

[vmxa]

It is late, will take look tomorrow, but just so you know, those far flung towns are a fine addition. Do not be afraid to annex them and build nothing, just science.

 

[vmxa]

The game actually is Warlord. I guess I misunderstood as I thought you had said you were playing the next level now. It is a huge map, but has 16 nations.

I would cancel and not make RoP's. These are best used for very specific needs.

I would cancel Dye and Horses with Persia. They are far away and you have no reason to give them anything.

Turn on Wait at end of turn. (always, always, always)

You may want to consider Always build the previous build.

Just my way of thinking, but I would not make a settler from a city that is making 25bpt, has a lib and a market and a barracks. I would switch to maybe a uni.

Put the joker back to work. You gain 3 bpt right there.

Put all specialist back to work.

Yes this is in caps. FOUR WORKERS? 19 slaves, you really are playing with at least one hand tied behind your back. You should have around 40 or 50 workers and 50 slaves by now.

You are so far over your support cost, that should be addressed. Either use them or lose them or build up the support.

Get rid of all warriors, archers, spears, swords and pikes.

If they are in key spots get a better unit there or upgrade the unit (vets or elites only).

You have narrow borders on both ends and no land north and south. This means you can reduce some of the MDI as well. Focus troops on both fronts. Rely on better units, read Sip.

Fill in some of the wide opens spaces with towns to boost support.

How did you get to the point where you are going into the IA and have no army? Did you ever have one and if so did you build the HE?

Evaluate your towns. Pi-Ramesses is making a lib, but it needs an aqua badly to grow. Why does it have a granary and a market, before an aqua? Why does it have a granary anyway?

I would go around and sell some barracks and stop making troops in those places. First you cannot afford the support and second those places (Byblos) are not making enough shields.

Sinop is a place that is suffering greatly from a lack of workers. It is near the core and makes 7 shields at size 3. Get the grass improved to get more pop. Bursa could lend it a tile and even give it up completely, if you had workers to clear some jungle.

This more or less core land, needs to have workers on hand at all times.

As you check each town, see about its growth or lack of growth and fix it, if needed.

You have the strongest Cav unit in the game and should have been primed to roll them out in large numbers to take some land.

 

[CommandoBob]

You've got a good land shape for a conquest, but way too many hills and mountains to do that easily. You'll need a good sized navy to bypass all the mountians. The Celts will be difficult to take without a large number of losses, even with Cannons. All those mountains.

You have five native luxuries but not enough markets. Compare the happiness of Iznik (size 7 and a market) to Elphantine (size 7 and no market). Iznit has no unhappy people while Elephantine has two. Once you get over size 6, a market helps to keep a city from rioting due to unhappiness. If Elephantine grows a bit larger and still has no market, the new citizens will have to be turned into specialists to keep the city from rioiting. In your core cities, you don't really want specialists. You want every citizen working tiles so that your production is maxed out. Save the specialists for the boonies and try to keep them out of the core.

Out in the boonies, which for you would be Ellipi, Babylon and Ashur, among others, don't ignore them. Each of these cities can build a worker in 10 turns, and you need workers. Try to have about at least one per city and aim for 1.5 to 2 per city. You have a lot of jungle to clear out and many mountains to road and later rail. That will take a lot of worker-turns. Let these kind of cities grow and when they reach size 6 hire as many geeks as you can. Irrigate all the land in the boonies. Mines won't matter at 90% corruption but food will.

Conquest will be difficult on this map, due to the terrain, but Spaceship and UN might be doable. Not easy, but doable.

 

[ronanp]

thanks for the input, I need more settles to fill in some gaps in my aquired Babalyon lands to the south, but I have I think ive volcanoes running down the spine of that land beside all the likly town sities.

I have ben picking towns which can knock out settles quickly and build back up and also to manage their growth/unhappness. I am guessing thats the wrong approach.

Sinop I have been trying to grow. The best tile in its range for food is run by Bursa, I was sure you can switch them around? if so that will make growing Sinop.

I know unit support is a problem but how do I cover my towns with troops particluarly if I found two or three more towns? and have an invasion force ready to role?

I have had no miltary leaders. Wipped two civs out and had damaging war with dutch and short scary early war with Celts. No leaders from any of that.

In terms of worker actions the only uses I can see for them untill I get rails is bringing water to babylon lands to the south which they are doing and bring water to pi Ramesses which I have not done anything about as yet. The outlying cities to the south have been building cannons for me as they done need barracks for that ( is that correct?) will swich them to workers to speed irrigation.

In terms of miltary expansion should I look to the south at eay targets and ain to pick up lets say Romes incense. Or do I expand my core near my capitol by going north over the moutains and taking three or four celtic towns, that my boust my production later (which will be needed to give space race anyhope hope)

Thanks for any input will go over the rest in more detail this evening

 

[vmxa]

"thanks for the input, I need more settles to fill in some gaps in my aquired Babalyon lands to the south, but I have I think ive volcanoes running down the spine of that land beside all the likly town sities."

You can slap in a lot of towns starting 3 tiles down from Helio. Abandon some of those towns that are in the way as you progress. Rush a settler out of them or a worker.


"I have ben picking towns which can knock out settles quickly and build back up and also to manage their growth/unhappness. I am guessing thats the wrong approach."

That is fine as long as they are not your best towns and it will not drop them from city size to town size.

"Sinop I have been trying to grow. The best tile in its range for food is run by Bursa, I was sure you can switch them around? if so that will make growing Sinop."

Go to the city view and remove a citizen from the tile you want to give to Sinop. Go to Sinop city view and move a pop to it.

"I know unit support is a problem but how do I cover my towns with troops particluarly if I found two or three more towns? and have an invasion force ready to role?"

You are in Republic, so no MP effect. You only need units on the borders or where a landing may come. You could soon have rail, but you lack the workers to get them up.

"I have had no miltary leaders. Wipped two civs out and had damaging war with dutch and short scary early war with Celts. No leaders from any of that."

That can happen. It is less likely to occur, if you take care to use elites in spots where they will win.

"In terms of worker actions the only uses I can see for them untill I get rails is bringing water to babylon lands to the south which they are doing and bring water to pi Ramesses which I have not done anything about as yet. The outlying cities to the south have been building cannons for me as they done need barracks for that ( is that correct?) will swich them to workers to speed irrigation."

You will find the game much harder, unless you make workers your top priority at the start. Your empire would be stronger and more productive. My rule is that, if you have citizens working tiles that are not improved, you need workers. Every worked tile must have a road. It should have an improvement, be it irrigation or a mine.

"In terms of miltary expansion should I look to the south at eay targets and ain to pick up lets say Romes incense. Or do I expand my core near my capitol by going north over the moutains and taking three or four celtic towns, that my boust my production later (which will be needed to give space race anyhope hope)"

Me, I prefer to remove the empires behind me first. Then I can concentrate on my expansion with all my forces. Aztecs and Rome and the rest first. I would work those Sips to get me some elites and try for a leader.

You need some pre-builds going for HE, MA and Pentagon.

Yes bombardment units do not need a barracks.

 

[Aabraxan]

I haven't had time to look at your save, and don't know if I'll have time to do so. I've read vmxa's and CommandoBob's comments, though, and may nonetheless have a little to offer here.

. . . .So any tips espicially for space or UN victory conditions from this point? . . . .

I don't play for UN, so I'm going to skip that one. As for space, though, the Ottomans are a nice choice, IMO. Play to your strengths. Scientific and Industrious, free techs, cheap libs and unis, fast workers, and an 8-attack cav unit?!?. Mmm-mmm, good!

Hmmmm workers . . .

. . . .Yes this is in caps. FOUR WORKERS? 19 slaves, you really are playing with at least one hand tied behind your back. . . . .

In the early game, the only benefit that you get from industrious is fast workers, but it's definitely a worthwhile benefit. In addition to movement, more roads = more commerce. Industrious means that you can get by with fewer workers, but by having so few, you effectively gave up most of the benefits of the industrious trait.

For future reference: (1) build more workers; (2) kill more AI settler pairs; and (3) watch other civs closely for opportunities to buy slaves. They usually cost ~100-120 gold per slave and they're worth it, especially in the early game. The AI is really bad about not building enough workers, so buying them both adds to your labor force and hurts them.

. . . .In terms of worker actions the only uses I can see for them untill I get rails is bringing water to babylon lands to the south which they are doing and bring water to pi Ramesses which I have not done anything about as yet. . . . .

Does every tile in the core and semi-core have a road? If not, your workers are not done. Typically, my workers do not stop moving until my entire core and semi-core is railroaded.

. . . .The outlying cities to the south have been building cannons for me as they done need barracks for that ( is that correct?)

Yes, that's correct. Cannons & other artillery do not benefit from barracks, except for maybe the H'wacha, but I'm not sure about that one.

. . . . Got some good money in the bank and 184 coming in every turn from other civs. Am about two techs up from the more advanvced group of civs. I have five lux's hooked up. Have sipahi and about to enter industrial age. . . . .

What's your science spending like? Sounds like you could do some deficit-spending research, if you aren't already. Gold in the bank is only good for 2 things: (1) buying stuff; and (2) upgrading units. With 5 luxes, a 2 tech lead, and sipahi, it doesn't sound like there's much to buy that you can't simply take (except for more sipahi). That play may not be good for a UN victory, but it'd be fine for space.

How many scientific opponents do you have? When you enter a new age, there's a trick where you gift or trade all the scientific civs up into the next age on the IBT, then trade around before you get your free tech. If you can get all the first-tier techs in trade, you will get a second-tier tech as your freebie. You can't get a tech for free if you've already got it.

. . . . You have five native luxuries but not enough markets. . . . . Once you get over size 6, a market helps to keep a city from rioting due to unhappiness. . . . .

I have one minor, nitpicky comment on CBob's post. The happiness generated by luxes + markets isn't dependent on the size of the city. I don't think that's what CBob meant, but his post sort of read that way. The happiness generated by markets is solely dependent on how many luxes you have going through it. Look at the happy faces of the two cities that he mentioned (Iznit and Elephantime). The one with no market should be getting 1 happy face per lux, for a total of five. The one with the market will get:
1 for the first lux
1 for the second lux
2 for the third lux
2 for the fourth lux
3 for the fifth lux.

Beyond 5 luxes, they get:
3 for the sixth lux
4 for the seventh lux; and
4 for the eighth lux.

With 5 luxes, you really, really should have markets in all of your core cities.

. . . . I know unit support is a problem but how do I cover my towns with troops particluarly if I found two or three more towns? and have an invasion force ready to role?

First of all, what's your government? If you're a Republic, which is a good government for space games, the support structure is 1/3/4. Towns support 1 unit, cities support 3, metros support 4. That means you need to get towns to clear that size 6-size 7 hurdle. For each one that does so, you'll triple it's support. Lay down tons of roads for the extra commerce. Build markets for the gold and for the happiness (to help decrease happiness spending). There's no MP bonus in Republic, so a warrior sitting in your capital is doing nothing but eating up support. Disband him. Use fast movers (Sipahi) to build a "zone defense," where stacks of fast movers cover larger areas of your empire. This costs less than having 2-3 spears in every city. Sipahi can cover a 9-tile radius on roads. That's a big area.

As I said, I don't have time to get into your save and look at the particulars, but this is what I've seen just from reading the other posts. Good luck and keep us posted.

Edit: Sure enough, cross-posted.

 

[vmxa]

ronanp, it may be of some value to scan this one:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=296512

If you look at the pix at 1395AD, you can see the difference. That was a Regent game and I was researching Flight and was taking down another island or continent. Rails on the new holdings.

 

[ronanp]

I have one unroaded worked square outside my core and thats being done at the moment. With money coming in from other civs my science is set to max or one or two points on the slider below that if there is no benfit in turns reduction in going any higher.

Until I got the siphi I needed troops to cover the annexed land to the south as leaving them empty would be asking for ships to drop off land forces. Now I have strong fast troops I will start reducing my old troops to get my costs down.

Have switched some production around and workers to bring the two core towns up to size. Will play some more and post another save when I feel I have taken on board the advice sofar and have my empire looking more ship shape. And will build more workers to get ready for railways.

The jokers that where in the save where to deal with the war wearness from the dutch war that went very badly, will go around and make sure all of them are back to work.

Thanks everyone for your imput

 

[vmxa]

I have one unroaded worked square outside my core and thats being done at the moment. With money coming in from other civs my science is set to max or one or two points on the slider below that if there is no benfit in turns reduction in going any higher.

Sounds like a plan. I was not sure if you meant that you only have a single tile being worked with no road. I remember that the capitol has a forest being worked, with no road. Three towns in a row near the capitol all have tiles being worked with no road.

That does not even count the fact that they should have an improvement (water or mine). BTW the forest should have been chopped by now as it will take more time to rail with a forest and gain nothing from the rail, other than movement.

I am big on chopping by the time you are closing in on IA and Steam. The point in having plenty of workers is that you have lost a lot of gold over the turns that a citizen was working the tile.

The forest gives you 2 shields and that is nice in the first age or so, but soon you will have missed out on the boost a quick 10 shields would give. You can mine and get to at least 1 shield and may turn up a bonus grassland.

That 10 shields towards a barracks or granary or even a temple can be more useful than the extra shield for the next 50 turns.

Back to the missing road on the forest, that gold would either buy something or be converted to beakers. add those over the entire empire and you have a huge impact. That does not even consider the impact on expansion.

You would have some techs sooner, better units sooner and could afford more of them. This would allow you to take more land. It has a massive cascade effect.

The workers issue is one of the biggest factors seen in games posted for help, those below Monarch anyway.

 

[CommandoBob]

Aabraxan is right; I wasn't that clear on markets and city size. That's what I get for trying to be coherent at midnight local time!

My point was this. You have 5 native luxuries already. That's very good, given the rather small size of your empire. In Elephantine, which has no market, those 5 luxuries are helping your unhappiness. In Iznit, which has a market, those same luxuries are helping a whole bunch more. Iznit has only Happy citizens, seven of them; Elephantine has 4 Happy, 1 Content and 2 Unhappy (IRIC). In both cities all 7 citizens are productive; no specialists needed. And both cities are fairly productive, too.

So what's the big deal, if everyone is working?

At size 7, not a lot. But consider if they both grow to size 12 and can work 12 tiles (no space limitations). Izmit, with a market, will have more Happy people than Elephantine and can work all 12 citizens on tiles. Elephantine will need to hire 2 or 3 specialists in order to keep the city from rioting due to unhappiness. That means 2 or 3 less citizens working good, productive tiles. Izmit will produce more shields than Elephantine, since all of Izmit's citizens will be working tiles but only some of Elephantine's citizens will be working tiles.

And if both cities are equally corrupt (which seemed to be the case) then Elephantine is the loser city. It will not build units or improvements as fast as Izmit.

With 5 luxuries, you won't need a market in a city smaller than size 6. Those places will be science farms anyway, extremely corrupt, and supporitng geeks. But in your core and due to the way they increase the effects of luxuries, markets are almost mandated.

 

[ronanp]

have played on till 1410 and taken on board a lot of what you said. Have just entered industrial age, got Nationlism as the freebe and with science at 100% will have railways in 9 turns. Still gaining 40 something gold per turn I have spare cash to upgrad my musketmen to riflemen if I come under attack.

Have dispanded a lot of old troops (you would probably still say I need more to go)
Have got most settlements up to 6/7 or on their way there
South of the moutain range will have to wait till post electricty
Have more workers
Three more towns founded, two more on their way
Cut down forest (have lost some core shield production because of this)
My third SGL built adam smiths to bring down costs of markets/harbours
Marketplace aquaduct building program almost finished (with help from dispanding troops)


What should be my build piroities in my core after libraries, uni's, aqua and marketplaces? I don't want to put towns to wealth

Are banks worthwhile?

thanks

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . What should be my build piroities in my core after libraries, uni's, aqua and marketplaces? I don't want to put towns to wealth

Are banks worthwhile?

thanks

Banks can be worthwhile, but if you're running 100% science, they will only help on those last turns, when you turn the science slider down to save gold without losing turns. There's an article linked in my sign on multiplier buildings that might be of some help on that. The short story is this: After corruption & building and troop upkeep are paid, what's left is split up according to your sliders. Some goes to lux, some to science, the rest to the treasury. If you're running 100% science, there's nothing leftover to be run through (& multiplied by) the bank.

Otherwise, sounds like you've got a good plan together.

Geez, 3 SGLs?!? Niiiiiice.

 

[ronanp]

Building by hand Newton uni in my town where I have copernicus with 31 turns to build I think it's safe that i can get it.

Have increased my lead in techs but am tempted by Perisia who is offering me 110 gold and 109 gpt along with some other stuff for magnetism. Any deal I have made in the past up north have been to give an edge to anyone other then Russia and the celts who are my only real miltaray and score threat. Perisia seams to be at war with the celts a lot. However at 100% I am still making 48 gpt so don't really need the money right now.

The three SGL kind of make up for the no MGL. Am itching to start a war with my siphi to get a golden age, but it will have to wait till tomorrow now.

 

[Snarkhunter]

Just a quick check: when you disbanded units, you did disband them in towns/cities that were building something useful for you, right? And moved them to such towns/cities first if they weren't already there? You can save quite a bit of time/shields by disbanding 4 or 5 obsoletes in a town that needs a market, 'duct, library, etc., or to crank out a sipahi that much faster. Or to prime a cash-rushed unit without paying the exorbitant cost of an empty shield bin.

kk

 

[ronanp]

yes I used them to rush aquaducts and some other structures in towns which would have taken a long time to build them.

 

[ronanp]

hadn't got back to this game in a while. Won in 1930's in a space race.

Since I posted the last save I made lots more workers cleared out the civs behind me. Had a great little war where everyone declared on me. Reduced my miltary running costs by dispanding old units and bring all towns up to size to provide extra support.

I am posting this now as I think I had the towns in newly conquered lands doing well for unit support and science farming, but not too sure. I know I could have squezzed in a lot more towns. but I kept a lot of towns rather the raising as the had infrastructure that would take me ages to build.

So can someone give me some pointers as to what I was doing right and wrong in terms of science farming in the west and south of my empire?

Thanks


I think I will load up a save again from before my launch and go to war, i really enjoyed the moderm warfare bit which I hadn't played in ages.

 

[vmxa]

ronanp and really for others that may post a save, it is helpful to use a name that includes your name. To me, I some times get back a day or 2 later and try to figure out what thread the game came from. vmxa_1200AD or something makes it easier to find the owner and the date lets others know if they may be interested.

At least it does me as I see post like I am in trouble and need help. I then load it to find it 1955AD. Not a lot that can be done at that point. Names like Germany_Invasion.sav are useful only when one is already into the game.

IOW in the thread a second or later save, that name does help, but for the first one, not so much.


First you may want to upgrade all your tanks, you have lots of cash and some nations are furious. Not that they can do much.

I looked at The Hague first. It looks like it is treated as a farm. It has 6 scientist. It is not a normal farm though. It has a factory? It has a Court and a Lib.

None of this matter much at this point. I would sell of the factory as you are making nothing and why get pollution. Especially as you only have 12 workers. I would have research Recycle as the selling off of structures would yield shields.

You do not need SDI right now as no one is in the modern age. Get a university in that town as you have the free Lab, but it does not apply without a university. This also makes it worth while to put another citizen back to work, AFTER the university is done.

Iskenderun irrigate the grass and clear the jungle tile and water it. Now it can grow, that is what you want from a farm or even a normal city with a university already build.

Farms should get 24 food asap, more if you can while it is growing. To that end, chop all the tress. I prefer to have them gone about the time steam is learned.

Tunceli is another with a factory and no university. It has a wheat that is watered, but not used. You can gain a beaker by moving a pop to the wheat and moving one to science. There are more tiles that cold be watered.

As you already know the point to farms is to pack them in so that they use only as many tiles as needed to get to 12 or 24 food.

Places that you are making structures such as New Sinop should take advantage of CE's. You can speed the aqua that way.

I see you never built the MA or the IA. As long as you took the time to get the tech for spies, I would plant them. It is nice to know what units they have, if nothing else.

If this is just a random map, I would suggest you move up a couple to maybe Monarch and see how that goes.

 

[ronanp]

good point about the save game name.

I got espinoge from a peace deal, so didn't spend anything on it. It didn't pay any attention to what I am reserching now as I launch the spaceship in one turns time.

I was using the MA and IA as perbuilds for spaceship parts and my timeing worked out that I always got the tech before finishing the build.

I didn't know the free reserch lads need univeristies to work properly, thanks for that.

I haven't upgraded my tanks or infantry as I have enough artillary and bombers to wipe out at least the first wave of attackers, giving me time to upgrade units as needed.

On workers I must have over forty and thats after joining some to my new cities that are close to my captiol to the north to bring them up to speed quickly



thanks

 

[ronanp]

thanks for all the input on this game, my last on warlord level. It helped with basic fundamentals of empire and managment.

Have just finshed my first Regent game with a domination victory in the 1300's. Had some tricky moments in the early game but got on top of it fairly soon.


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