Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by The googles do nothing, Feb 20, 2019.
Canada still sucks. You must be really bad at fighting early wars.
No I'm fine at it. I just hate it. It slows you down, significantly.
My turn 80 economy with Canada is SIGNIFICANTLY better than anyone else's (with the exception of Inca).
How so? An ancient or classical civ will have conquered a neighbour or two by then, Mali would have taken off, Korea would be beginning to dominate, etc.
Not being attacked is not going to suddenly leap you ahead of the civs who DOMINATE the early eras.
Depends on if you get hit pre-archery or not. You're not going to take off if your initial build order ends up as slinger, builder, warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior, warrior 'cuz the Aztecs or the Mongols spawned next to you.
A lot of it is luck dependent. Who your neighbors are, who the AIs target, etc. Granted that Gorgo/Inca/Nubia/Aztecs do better if they have a good start, but Canada is ALWAYS reliably good early on (takes the luck factor out) regardless of who you spawn next to.
Agreed... Early wars are costly (and then you feel the need to get enough out of the war to catch up and so you are forced to commit to wholesale domination... A lot of my games end as unintentional domination that way)
Norway isn't top tier, but after playing them with the patches/GS mechanics, they're super fun. Much better to play than before! I suggest definitely playing them to that strong pillage game like you're talking about, the earlier the better since you can focus on other goals and raid developed civs for culture and science in addition to gold/faith. Berserker still kinda sucks but what are you gonna do.
Yeah, the Berserler is designed to pillage, which means it will be taking a lot of defensive hits...
And it gets an active penalty to defending which is WILD...that's just bad design
Mostly agree although I would
- definitely up Egypt 1 tier I think this is actually a decent civ now
- maybe up Dido as well
- maybe even up Georgia 1
- drop China 1
May I ask why you would move them up/down?
I think @Archon_Wing's posted list is the best assembled picture in the thread.
I do agree with all 4 of @Isengardtom's thoughts though:
China probably deserves A on an even playing field, but in my limited experience falls off against higher level AI, where your big Wonder bonus means sailing into the wind, so to speak.
Dido is really just super map-dependent. And there are plenty of maps, including many Continent layouts, where she can get away with a lot.
Egypt just loves rivers now, and the alliance boost is underrated. Tier 2 alliances are a really big deal...
Georgia is definitely a "C tier" civ now, as city states + envoys are just too big. It requires a lot to go decently for her to work, but it's not unreasonable and the reward of success is huge. (I mean come on, DOUBLE envoys?!?)
I'm going to add a few other smaller nit picks:
Skeptical that Peter is worthy of breaking into S-tier over A. He just doesn't register as elite to me, like all the others up there do.
America is probably not so high up in B (if he makes it into B at all) if we ignore the AI overvaluing favor. (If we are including that, carry on I suppose.)
Conversely I feel like Saudi is better than most of its peers in B-tier, not worse. Remember, Saudi automatically makes all other religious civs in its games quite a bit worse, and has unusually robust victory condition coverage.
I also don't know what to make of Norway now. The pillaging was nuts before, and now it's better for them. I don't have a great opinion yet, but surely that had to have moved the needle?
But again, excellent list. Completely correct that Victoria is awful and Canada is awful-er.
Peter is probably one of the top three in the entire game!
That really depends on what higher difficulty level means. On Immortal and below, you can get any wonder with China besides the impossibles (Stonehenge, etc) though I've seen videos of advanced players doing the same on Deity, so I'm not just using my own experience and one deity players has addressed early wonder as "free" for China. Deity's just an entirely different game though given the few deity games I have won; it's very possible to chop out wonders conventionally such as Oracle, etc. Outside of wonders, getting a 4th builder charge that early on means a lot. 1 charge @ t10 means a lot more than 1 charge @ t100 for any number of reasons. It also allows China to skip Liang, which is popular since Pingala is very popular for cultural victories and victories in general.
Add in that some wonders require specific terrain which means many rival AI may not be able to build it all, as well as the Great Wall being buffed means that China is very strong.
I actually don't know where to put Dido. That middle tier has a lot of that, and should probably be more full, but then people would get pissed that their favor gimmick civ didn't go there and I have to explain 30 pages on why it's not really that good.
You know, I didn't even know the Tsukihe actually received a large buff (increased faith during a Golden Age). I think if that bonus applied to each level of wall, they'd really be something (They need a build wall bonus IMO). But otherwise it still requires founding a religion and relies on CS's which is an unreliable combo.
The thing about Peter is that he is oppressive over both Culture and Religion. It's not just easy for him to win either, but he can easily make it so that nobody does either. The Lavra denies early great people for other people, letting him set the flow of the game. Being able to faith buy mass Rock Bands or Cossacks ends the game easily. I mean, we have another thread about how overpowered Rock Bands are, and Russia can easily spam them.
Now I understand there's a lot ;of "but early War lolololol", but I take into consideration all maps, so they may not be an early soft rush target. Even something like lots of rivers or hills on a slightly far away target often takes the steam out of many early UUs.
+5 Combat @ home is an OP bonus, since dying early to barbarians and neighbors is the most common way to lose the game. I mean, an American Warrior fighting on their own continent is almost as good as an Eagle Warrior before luxuries, and their archers are really strong. Being able to use an otherwise useless diplomacy slot early also helps a lot too. If Teddy gets Iron, he beats every civ not named Rome, India, or Maori. Because of how loyalty works, conquering your own continent is something that's done anyways. It's the opposite of Victoria, whose gameplay requires you to go against regular game flow
Since they've actually been buffed since, I think a lot of people rate them A and I think that's perfectly reasonable but their other bonuses are not too impressive as Parks are pretty useless compared to bands.
I just think the Mamluk requiring Iron really made them lose their steam, but they're not too bad.
It has. But remember you can still pillage science/culture from districts. Norway's only getting extra science/culture from improvements. Of which the AI sometimes doesn't even build. It's good, but it's not gamechanging like everyone thinks-- it's not like pillaging a whole bunch of faith is a bad thing either....
Basically @Chocolate Pi already did
On top of those comments I also think that Egypt has a strong gold game, which I find to be more important in GS than before and I find the floodplain bonuses to be very strong.
I agree that Georgia is slightly situational but it’s not that hard to found a religion even on deity. And the AI is far less aggressive so you’re less penalised to go for one. And CS are much stronger now. In R&F Georgia was extra nerfed by the fact all city states were dead by turn 100, whereas now I have games where they all survive. Envoys/suzerainty are a powerful element to the game.
Dido I also agree very map depending but the settler bonuses are great to expand very quickly
As for China like was mentioned my comment also relates to higher difficulty. It’s not easy to make use of a lot of the wonder rushing through builders. I also find it a lot less easy to predict when wonders will go
In my view on deity
* great bath goes by turn 20 sometimes already
* Stonehenge and hanging gardens can still be really fast although I’ve both seen hem go late too (turn 60 hanging gardens in my last game)
*pyramids seem to go faster than before
In short it’s just less predictable than before which makes it also more difficult to plan for what wonders to go for
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