Praetorians and Keshiks are worse than jaguars and skirmishers

[Iranon]

No amount of experience can replace sound theory (experience often benefits theory though - revealing oversights and giving ideas for interesting new hypotheses).

I don't get how Praetorians are so situational. They'll keep, when they are no longer kings of the battlefield they are still very cost-effective fodder.

For rushes, Jaguars guarantee a more vulnerable version of something that's usually unattractive anyway, at a higher economic investment (fast Iron Working with Aztecs' starting techs is harsh).
Not bad in the big picture as they're great for harassing, make excellent medics and a guaranteed good-enough unit to support a catapult-driven waris useful.

Nobody forces us to blindly beeline Iron Working.

 

[noto2]

Okay, let's play a MP game, no traits, but my UU is a the jag and yours is, pick one:
Numidian Cav
Praet
Keshik

and see how it goes.

What difficulty do I play on? Well it's custom...because I play with custom settings and a mod, but with the retail BTS AI I was an immortal player.
No I didn't say you should rush IW every time you play Monty...all I said was I'd rather have the jag/skirmisher/holkan/dog soldier than praet/keshik/NC. Traits are another matter

 

[Manco Capac]

Two sets of different paradigms:
single player IS not mutliplayer. Multiplayer is harder if the adversity is competent or skillful.
K-mod vs retail BTS. Most people still thinks in regular BTS environment, so hence the adversity from other players.
In K-mod, I've heard the AI stacks don't kamikaze like idiots just as retail BTS AI would do. Most people will say, scrap that IW because archers will do the defensive work to let the AI scrap his/her hammers into units. In K-mod, it will pillage everything if the defenses are too huge.

 

[noto2]

I suppose. I haven't played regular BTS AI in more than a year, perhaps I've forgotten what it's like, but even back then I didn't notice keshiks or praets doing all that well. I'd still rather have access to jags than praets, even in regular bts. Now I'm not talking about traits or starting techs, or UB's, I'm just talking about the UU's.

On that note, how can anyone still be playing with retail BTS AI? Do yourself a favour and play a mod, something like BBAI or Kmod at least, the AI is SUBSTANTIALLY improved

 

[Manco Capac]

On that note, how can anyone still be playing with retail BTS AI? Do yourself a favour and play a mod, something like BBAI or Kmod at least, the AI is SUBSTANTIALLY improved

I do not play against idiot AI's (in fact, I show to the world via the code their idiocy^9001), I play against human players via competition games like xOTMs or some HoF games. Want to improve my play. That's why I do not need to get some mod. Unless I become pro in all victories, there won't be any end in replayability.

 

[shakabrade]

AI is better but also less fun. Since in my book, civ is considered a game in which you beat yourself, I don't need an annoying AI prone to backstabbing, pillaging and even more unit spamming. Also, there are prehistoric DOWs you can't do anything against. That's just tedious. Not my cup of tea. Just like I don't play MP. It, like Kmod, focuses only on aggression.

Deity AI (BTS) is challenging and fun in its sillyness.
When I started to win regularly I found there is whole world of challenges in better strategy and micro/macro management, better diplo, better everything. There are so many mini-games in BTS most people are not aware of. At least I wasn't. And you can improve in every single one of them.

I admit I didn't know leaders had personalities until I found this forum. Thought traits determined everything. When I found out not only that there are personalities but also that you can manipulate them, I was thrilled to see yet another game within a game. K-mod, on the other hand, feels just like game with events on in which your mountain always erupts, where your diplomats always perform faux pais, and ability to kick the religion out of the city makes game so unpredictable that you can only go war path to have any control of the game. Your choices are limited there. But if someone wants to make civ feel like total war, with diplo just for flavor, with huge emphasis on battling an AI, K-mod is THE mod.

You see, I kill deity with no problem at almost 100% rate on BTS, but it is still more than obvious Duckweed is much better player than me.
Obviously, there are many challenges left for anyone in regular BTS. Especially for Immortal players.

 

[noto2]

Don't you get bored manipulating an AI that will always do what you predict it to do? At least in kmod you can't always predict AI behaviour. If you find challenge to be boring, well then I can see why you wouldn't like it. Oh sure, I miss the days when I could build every single wonder in the game, defend my cities with only warriors, and never get attacked because the AI was 100% predictable. Oh no, wait, I don't miss those days at all.

 

[shulgi]

With the exception of early wars on lower difficulties, k-mod does not feel like the vastly different experiences that you guys are talking about. It might be a total war mod on deity, I really don't know this but it sure does not feel this way on emperor (yes, more so than on BtS) and it wasn't on the one game of immortal I played. There is still significant room for improvement in k-mod and I would like to see that happen. There is also room for improvement in BtS but that is that going to happen?

The points about xOTM are well taken, it looks like a nice community over there but I just haven't been happy going back to the base game.

I think a lot of us would take the skirmisher in MP but Praetorians are a fantastic unit that is useful for a much longer time than the standard swordsmen, they are still worth building even when you get to maces.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Okay, let's play a MP game, no traits, but my UU is a the jag and yours is, pick one:
Numidian Cav
Praet
Keshik

Turns into a luck-suck. Say someone picks prats. If you get jags before they have copper or iron hooked up, they're boned. If they happen to have either and you're close, you're in trouble. Axes without AGG vs prats are bad news, and that's on flatlands. Forks, pillages, things are going to get hard.

If you're far enough away, both UU become pretty close to irrelevant.

Keshiks could really screw you too. Terrain movement bonus is scary.

Know what's most amusing though? If he gets copper and you don't, he can still easily kill you with a basic axe rush/choke lol. Jags <<<<<< skirmishers in MP. Dogs can be useful too but holkans are far less impressive for the same reason. Still potentially useful, but not amazing because they're not so good at pressing archers and they're absolutely worthless against axes and swords.

Also, there are prehistoric DOWs you can't do anything against. That's just tedious. Not my cup of tea. Just like I don't play MP. It, like Kmod, focuses only on aggression.

Deity AI can hit you in the 2200-1800 BC range even on BTS. If you go worker --> warrior (s) ---> settler you just lost instantly. Tedious, right?

Civ IV by design is military-favored. That might be an unfortunate reality, but it is the reality. That's how they designed the game. Kmod just makes the AI play the game that was actually given to us.

Oh sure, I miss the days when I could build every single wonder in the game, defend my cities with only warriors, and never get attacked because the AI was 100% predictable. Oh no, wait, I don't miss those days at all.

. For all this talk about "historical sim", it's quite interesting that "diplo" is a legit earlygame defense against invasion to people making that argument!

There is also room for improvement in BtS but that is that going to happen?

Obviously not. They introduced a bug in overflow in 3.19, admitted it very early, and never changed it again. They also knew about control flaws for years and didn't touch them (kmod already fixed).

 

[calibur]

. For all this talk about "historical sim", it's quite interesting that "diplo" is a legit earlygame defense against invasion to people making that argument!

Well, you'd likely conquer or get conquered eventually, but diplo IRl could determine how long you remained independent.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, you'd likely conquer or get conquered eventually, but diplo IRl could determine how long you remained independent.

In the BCs? Who "wasn't" independent in the BCs? Diplo was of marginal concern; it was mostly a factor of whether a territory could recruit, control, and maintain a military sufficient to conquer or at least defend. If there was incentive to invade, "diplo" wasn't much (if any) of a disincentive.

 

[King Flevance]

Skirmishers are awesome. No counter and strong for their age. They really have no downside.

 

[noto2]

Yeah I agree skirmishers are better all-around and certainly better at stopping a Mongol or Rome player. Jags are better for bumrushing someone, though.

 

[Iranon]

I'm not so sure they are.

While they have their advantages (especially assuming default leaders), they're also more expensive, lack first strikes, don't hold cities nearly as well, have a solid counter if an opponent manages to hook up metal and require 150 more to unlock (Mining + Iron working vs. Hunting + Archery; not counting Bronze Working because Mali will want that too).

The tech considerations translate into about 5 additional Skirmishers, hammer cost into 7 for every 5 Jaguars thereafter.
5 Jaguars vs. 12 Skirmishers
10 Jaguars vs. 19 Skirmishers.

For default leaders, subtract 1-2 Skirmishers to account for Monty's discounted barracks. However, also consider that Mali will have the benefits of FIN and a more flexible tech path: earlier Bronze Working (snowballing economic benefits) or getting the first few units much earlier (possible strategic benefits, e.g. choking someone other than our main victim).

Looking at the big picture, I see a more promising rush opportunity for Mali.

 

[Psychonautslog]

Indian fast workers are my favorites, because they are useful through the whole game.

 

[noto2]

Skirmishers can rush hard, true, and perhaps take a brand new city without prohibitive losses, but any city that's been around for a while is going to give ridiculous casualties to attacking skirmishers. Monty's jag is Str 5.5 and can have CR, so that's 30% attack vs cities. Compare that to a str 4.4 skirmisher. This is a huge difference when up against CG1 archers in a city, especially if it is on a hill or has a wall.
Again, like I said before, I'm basing it on experience. Before I really played around with jags I expected they were one of the worst UU's in the game. But time and time again I've easily conquered a civ with jags. I've had far more success with them than any other unit, including praets and immortals. CR jags, combined with the aggressive trait, seem to be strong enough to roll over archers. I do agree, though, about the awkward tech path.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Skirmishers can rush hard, true, and perhaps take a brand new city without prohibitive losses, but any city that's been around for a while is going to give ridiculous casualties to attacking skirmishers. Monty's jag is Str 5.5 and can have CR, so that's 30% attack vs cities. Compare that to a str 4.4 skirmisher. This is a huge difference when up against CG1 archers in a city, especially if it is on a hill or has a wall.
Again, like I said before, I'm basing it on experience. Before I really played around with jags I expected they were one of the worst UU's in the game. But time and time again I've easily conquered a civ with jags. I've had far more success with them than any other unit, including praets and immortals. CR jags, combined with the aggressive trait, seem to be strong enough to roll over archers. I do agree, though, about the awkward tech path.

In MP, skirmisher = build a few (5-8) and read nearby person's power. If low attack + kill(couple archers will die), if high declare war, pillage everything they have, and choke. Only EXTREMELY lucky early copper can save them from that (IE BFC copper).

Comically, chariots lose to skirms outright at equal xp due to the first strikes. As mali you always have the option of getting 1-2 out even earlier and choking them nigh-irreparably right from "go".

If you're in a 1v1 and the opponent is mali, you really don't have much choice but to pick mali or inca, since even hard-counter UU like the immortal might not be hooked up in time. Skirm + anything else beats quechas, but it forces the mali to get a resource before coming after you and kills the practicality of a skirm rush and especially of a skirm choke.

 

[bhavv]

If you're playing as the Aztecs unrestricted, you can stomp on prats with any metal at all by simply taking shock on axes. I don't see the need to rush a particularly expensive tech. On top of that, most difficulties you can kill or at least choke metal with something like chariots too.

Jags are not the counter to prats, they are a utility UU unto themselves. If you want to rush a UU that actually does screw Rome over ASAP with consistency (and almost every other civ too) then you definitely want Mali.

And dog soldiers. Resourceless, available at BW. I've beaten rome in several games with Vultures and those are weaker than axes and only get a single promo. All I did was raze their iron and place a stack of vultures and spears on top of it. It might not be consistent but you will be researching BW in every game anyway so if you do get some copper just axe / axe UU rush if you want.

I've tried jags in several games too, all they ever end up being is a waste of time researching an expensive tech for a pathetically weak UU that simply get wiped out by AI axes. And yes the AI absolutely will have axes and / or HAs before you complete IW on Immortal / Deity. I agree though that jags can make brilliant medics with just 3 more promos needed for Medic and Woodsman 3.

So for me, jags are one of, if not the most unreliable rush units, as I said before simply rushing with plain simple archers works more reliably and more often than Jags ever have for me.

Praets only cost 5 more for 8 strength, and just 45 for that much strength is extremely efficient, there is absolutely no way that the cost of praets is a negative, in fact its only a possitive.

The negative to praets is finding iron, and hoping that your target doesn't have axes. You said earlier that a CR promoted praet will beat an axe, but what about if there's also a wall in the city and shock axes if facing an agg opponent?

 

[bhavv]

Also I dunno what difficulty the OP plays on, but only facing archers by the time you finish researching IW rarely ever happens on Immortal and probably never on diety.

Skirmishers / Dogs / Quechas / Immortals / WCs / Even plain archers are the only units that can 'reliably' face nothing but archers. If youre seeing otherwise in your games, its only because the AI didn't start near any metal or horses. And this actually makes me think that turning on balanced resources would actually nullify the OPs idea of any post BW, Wheel or Archery rush is somehow reliable.

 

[noto2]

Yawn, yawn, yawn. No. I'm an immortal player. My jags only face archers. How? It's called choking. I scout the territory first. Yes, a lot of the time I don't even have to choke early I can do it with jagas because I attack the moment the AI hooks up copper/iron. If they are doing it early then I'll invade and fortify a few archers on the copper hill. No problem. I've never had axes be a problem for jags.
The problems for jags are resource independent units like dog soldiers. Even skirmishers would be a problem. Oh, and if an AI has copper in the capital bfc then I won't attack that AI, I'll choose a different target.