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Preventing Other Civs From Spreading Their Religion

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by rover6695, Mar 7, 2016.

  1. sixty4half

    sixty4half Prince

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    What difficulty are you playing on?
     
  2. miaasma

    miaasma Prince

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    well, there are numerous ways to sabotage your opponent without declaring war in this game that don't really have equivalents in real life, missionary/prophet spam is just one of them
     
  3. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    Emperor on unmodded, monarch on Acken's mod.
     
  4. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    "Waste of faith"? Once you've founded and enhanced your religion, what else would you (should you) be spending your faith on (particularly if you are interested in a more historically realistic, immersive treatment of religion)?

    Most players' list of priority uses of faith would include:
    • buying religious buildings (that's certainly consistent with historical immersion, since religions have always built buildings in which their faith is practiced and reinforced)

    • buying more Great Prophets and missionaries to spread my faith to others, so I can get more of my juicy founder bonus (i.e., doing the same thing the AI does to you :D)

    • buying as many Great Persons (particularly Great Scientists and Great Engineers) in the Industrial Era as I can
    Buying inquisitors to defend your faith from heresy and external influence? Not even on the list. It's a "waste of faith." And yet isn't that one of the most historically consistent uses of faith? Shouldn't it be more popular? Shouldn't it at least be on the priority list?

    The problem is the last item on the list, isn't it? Buying GPs with faith in the Industrial Era was a game feature created by Firaxis to make faith investment worthwhile for the entire game. It is the least historically consistent use of faith in the game, and yet it is the most popular use by far.

    Yes, many academic institutions around the world had religious roots, and in pre-Industrial times those institutions harbored most of the intellectual elites -- all of that is historically well-attested, and should be modeled in the game (and is, in the form of the Reformation belief, Jesuit Education) -- but those institutions drifted far from their religious roots by the Industrial Era. And as modeled in the game, buying Great Persons with faith is not tied, in any way, to the presence of universities or comparable institutions (although getting to Industrial Era in a timely manner without them would be a slow slog).

    The problem is that this use of faith is so powerful and so compelling that it skews people's views about what faith should be used for. This feature was so over-powered in G&K (where merely opening a policy tree was sufficient to allow you to buy particular GPs with faith) that Firaxis changed it to require the finisher (triggering modest grumpiness in the player base, until everyone adjusted). Give that feature another nerf and everyone would buy more inquisitors, to stamp out heresy wherever and however it appears.
     
  5. Akbarthegreat

    Akbarthegreat Angel of Junil

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    Why on earth would I require "faith" to stop some bearded men entering my land and randomly converting whole cities to a different faith? That's trespassing, and historically were that to happen it would be swordsmen who would stop (or kill) the "holy" men walking into others lands.

    I don't mind inquisitors, I do buy them, but that's for their other purpose which is far more realistic, rooting out heresy from your population. That is once the heresy has spread in your population, which strikes me as the proper historical use of inquisitors.

    And regarding your other point, yeah I do agree. Stocking up faith to buy great people in the industrial era is strange to say the least :lol:
     
  6. Primacide

    Primacide Settler

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    Wow I really don't get this one. I try to purchase one inquisitor per city. Early. Then I never see an enemy faith unit all game. I realize this is costly in faith, but I do it every game where I'm going for a religion. I guess it's just a question of commitment - if religion will be somewhat essential to that particular game, then invest in the freaking inquisitors. If religion isn't going to give you much toward victory, then sell open borders to the faith-invader of your choice and move on.

    Seriously though. One inquisitor per city. Do it. Do it now.
     
  7. sixty4half

    sixty4half Prince

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    Religion is a pretty big influence in people's real life. I actually find using faith to purchase GP pretty accurate with the exception of Great Scientists but there are even exceptions there. Michelangelo's most famous piece of art is in the Sistine Chapel for example. Religion has inspired many great engineers to build amazing buildings the Pyramids of Egypt, the Mayans and the Aztecs are all prime examples of that. It inspires songs, art, plays and books. Merchants have long followed pilgrimage trails and used them to create vast networks of trade. I would argue the opposite, that using faith as an inspiration to turn normal people into Great People is a fairly accurate representation of what happened in real life history.
     
  8. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    In the Industrial Era? Was John Roebling hired by a Protestant church to build the Brooklyn Bridge? Did Albert Einstein's receive a stipend from a Buddhist temple?

    I get your point, but, if anything, that would justify buying Great Persons in pre-Industrial Eras. The fact is, this is a game mechanic devised to give some utility to late-game faith. Is it over-powered? Yeah, pretty much. Does it accurately reflect post-Industrial ways of generating Great Admirals, Great Scientists, Great Engineers, Great Merchants (OK, I will acknowledge an exception for those unaccountably popular televangelists who seem to be able to line their own pockets like no one before or since, but I wouldn't celebrate that phenomenon), etc.? I think not so much.
     
  9. sixty4half

    sixty4half Prince

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    I didn't say EVERY great person was inspired by Faith, and I did specifically say that the main exception would be Great Scientists, like Einstein.

    Cristo Redentor was dedicated in 1931 by a Great Artists, Polish Sculptor Paul Landowski, and a Great Engineer, Brazilian Great Engineer Heitor da Silva Costa. So there are examples of Post Industrial Era faith inspired great people. And there are many other examples. I guess it's just the way I prefer to see the game. I mean, it is what it is.
     
  10. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Yes, it is what it is.
     
  11. fyar

    fyar Prince

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    The fact that many industrial / modern / atomic / information era great persons were inspired by faith is without debate. Here are just a few examples (FAR from a complete list) from each "great person" category in real history post-industrial, most of which were off the top of my head (the rest from minimal research).

    Great Writers:
    Fyodor Dostoyevsky (Eastern Orthodoxy) - "The whole law of human existence consists of making it possible for man to bow down before what is infinitely great. If man were to be deprived of the infinitely great, he would refuse to go on living, and die of despair." (Demons)
    Anne Frank (Judaism) - "The best remedy for those who are frightened, lonely or unhappy is to go outside, somewhere where they can be alone with the sky, nature and God. For only then can you feel that everything is as it should be and that God wants people to be happy amid nature’s beauty and simplicity." (The Diary of Anne Frank)
    C.S. Lewis (Protestantism) - "“My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?” (Mere Christianity)
    Mohandas Gandhi (Hinduism) - "Hinduism as I know it entirely satisfies my soul, fills my whole being." (Young India)
    Flannery O'Connor (Catholicism) - "Well, toward morning the conversation turned on the Eucharist, which I, being the Catholic, was obviously supposed to defend. Mrs. Broadwater said ... she thought of it as a symbol and implied that it was a pretty good one. I then said, in a very shaky voice, 'Well, if it’s a symbol, to hell with it.' That was all the defense I was capable of but I realize now that this is all I will ever be able to say about it, outside of a story, except that it is the center of existence for me; all the rest of life is expendable." (The Habit of Being)

    Great Artists:
    Salvador Dalí (Catholicism) - fiercely anti-clerical during his early life, but converted to Catholicism before painting the Crucifixion (Corpus Hypercubus), The Discovery of America, and The Madonna of Port Lligat
    Tenzing Rigdol (Buddhism) - modern Tibetan artist and activist: Avalokiteshvara
    Jean-François Millet (Catholicism) - painted The Angelus, depicting two peasants in prayer

    Great Musicians:
    Sergei Rachmaninov (Eastern Orthodoxy) - composed plenty of liturgical pieces, such as the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
    Bob Dylan (Judaism, Protestantism) - he was born Jewish, and his songs always reflected a thoughtful, religious (albeit sometimes implicit) sentiment, but after converting to Christianity he wrote songs like Gotta Serve Somebody which were more explicit
    Andrea Bocelli (Catholicism) - modern day classical tenor, his Sacred Arias is the biggest selling classical album by any solo artist in history
    Bono (Protestantism) - if you don't know how much U2 has been inspired by faith, read the lyrics to I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For, Where the Streets Have No Name, or Pride (In the Name of Love)

    Great Generals:
    Francisco Franco (Catholicism) - for better or worse, he made it his mission to protect the Catholic Church from the mass killings and persecutions of the communists in the Spanish Civil War (which he unfortunately did by persecuting them likewise)
    Osama bin Laden (Islam) - I hesitate to claim that he's inspired by faith, more like by an ideology, but there's an argument to be made here... one that I would refute

    Great Admirals:
    Togo Heihachiro (Shinto) - Japanese admiral who won the Battle of Tsushima Straits; "the Horatio Nelson of the East"; a Shinto shrine was dedicated to him in Tokyo, and he was nearly elevated to a Shinto kami
    Don Juan of Austria (Catholicism) - the Holy League, under his guidance and that of Our Lady of the Rosary, won the Battle of Lepanto; this is very much a stretch to put into the Industrial Era, but you could argue post-Renaissance
    Matome Ugaki (Shinto) - another Japanese admiral, launched the first wave of kamikaze attacks against the US fleets; kamikaze means "divine wind", recalling the divine intervention that saved Japan in the 13th century with a typhoon that destroyed an invading Mongol fleet

    Great Merchants:
    John D. Rockefeller (Protestantism) - the founder of Standard Oil was a teetotaling Baptist and funded a number of church-based institutions
    Jean Henri Dunant (Protestantism) - Swiss businessman who founded the International Red Cross / Red Crescent
    Sakichi Toyoda (Buddhism) - founded Toyota on the Toyoda precepts, which were based on the doctrines of Nichiren Buddhism

    Great Engineers:
    Heitor da Silva Costa (Catholicism) - designer of the Cristo Redentor... well, it's in the game, so I guess I had to include him
    Mahmoud Bodo Rasch (Islam) - designed the main tower of the Abraj Al Bait, whose prominent features include the text "God is great" and a clock to signal the five daily prayer times for pilgrims to Mecca
    Guglielmo Marconi (Catholicism) - one of the actual great engineers in the game for inventing the radio, he personally introduced the first radio broadcast of the Pope
    Fariborz Sahba (Bah'ai) - designer of the Lotus Temple
    Antoni Gaudí (Catholicism) - designer of La Sagrada Familia, which happens to be my favorite building in the world

    Great Scientists:
    Georges LeMaitre (Catholicism) - the Belgian Catholic priest who discovered Hubble's Law before Hubble did, he also first proposed the big bang theory (I don't mean the TV show), which was initially rejected by many "secular" scientists because they saw it as some lame Catholic justification for a "beginning" of the universe that they didn't like because of the Creation implications
    Michael Faraday (Protestantism) - discovered Faraday's Law which unified electricity and magnetism, refused knighthood because of his religious beliefs against accumulating worldly fame and riches
    Albert Einstein (Judaism) - Einstein didn't make a show of religious practice, but his very interest in science was religiously motivated: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."
    Werner Heisenberg (Protestantism) - a pioneer in quantum mechanics and its foundational principle, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, he stated, "What these internal relations show in all their mathematic abstraction, an incredible degree of simplicity, is a gift that we can only accept with humility. Not even Plato could have believed that it would be so beautiful. In fact these relations cannot have been invented: they have existed since the creation of the world."
    Max Planck (Protestantism) - another key figure in quantum mechanics who stated, "All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."
    Gregor Mendel (Catholicism) - Augustinian friar and the father of genetics; arguably as important a figure in the field as Charles Darwin himself, he did all his research from his monastery

    I put extra emphasis on religious great scientists just because of sixty4half's willingness to concede the point on that particular subject. Great persons all throughout history have been inspired by faith, and the modern era is no exception. This functionality within Civ V has every basis in history.
     
  12. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    No mas. I realize I violated a cardinal rule: never discuss religion in public (much less on the internet).
     
  13. fyar

    fyar Prince

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    Well it's your prerogative if you don't like talking about it but this is hardly a discussion about religion. It's about history, and the fact that religion has had a significant impact in inspiring "great persons" all throughout history, including from the industrial era and onwards, is a historical fact. Since this game for many people is about role-playing history, I contend that your original objection was historically inaccurate, as well as making for poor gameplay.
     
  14. Iskiab

    Iskiab Chieftain

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    This!

    I used to accept open borders treaties for the heck of it but stopped. No good can come from open borders.

    Accepting open borders in the early game is inviting a civ to spread their religion in your empire. If a civ accepted open borders from you they're inviting you to spread your religion and they most likely didn't get an early religion.

    Later on it leads to the AI stealing your artifacts.

    It's only worthwhile in the late game after you discover the internet for a culture win.
     
  15. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    Accepting open border is never good unless you need a religion from a specific AI. It's always bad in the late game especially after archaeology. If you want to win CV, you need to buy open border, not sell them.
     
  16. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

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    open borders improve spread of your religion and tourism too though.

    Also it improves relations a little bit with friends. Pretty much every culture victory I've played I've been buying loads of late-game open-borders just for the hefty 25% tourism modifier.
     
  17. adsin15

    adsin15 Warlord

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    I think missionaries and prophets should be killable without declaring war.

    If they can cross into our territory without causing a war...we should be able to kill them without starting a war.

    That would make things much better and more realistic. Other countries shouldnt get a diplo penalty for stopping me from converting their cities.
     

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