Prince level - something I'm doing wrong?

[Rasplorien]

I'm still new to Civ 4 (though been playing Civs since 1997) so perhaps my mistake is picking the right civ, or general strategy.

On Prince mode, I start off usually way ahead of the game. I settle 4 cities and build them up (standard map, continents). While settling I usually have 3 workers wandering around on Automate while I build up archers (and more as copper/iron come around).

With techs, I usually research the quicker techs, as I've found that when you finally can trade techs, the computer tends to have a bit. Maybe I should go down one path further?

As the early game goes on, I end up going to war, beating the snot out of a civ, whether to death or just down a bit. But after awhile, my (captured) city maintence cost gets high and I have to either raze or back off.

I run out of money a lot on this level, thus having to reduce science to 60% or lower.

And here's the big problem - when the civs start trading techs as Alphabet comes out, all of a sudden every civ is 6 techs ahead of me and I'm left behind with nothing. From this point, I slowly fall farther and farther behind, until my neighbor decides my culture is pissing him off and he charges in with his army.

Any ideas?

 

[Dragonlor]

workers wandering around on Automate

It is my philosophy never to automate workers. You can develop your land better yourself and you learn more by using them manually.

With techs, I usually research the quicker techs

Try to have specific goals instead. If you need military, head for Construction. If you want to trade techs, go for Alphabet. If you need money, head towards currency. If you need a religion, head for whichever one isn't taken.

 

[vmxa]

Get at least 5 cities, do not be afraid to use the whip to get up and running. Chop settlers if needed.

Later don't forget the draft.

At the start get more cottages up and fewer farms. No need to grow faster than you can handle with happiness or health. The whip comes in here.

 

[jeremiahrounds]

I think at the start not automating workers is important. Personally i dont find it tedious at the start so why not. Its a fun part where the order of every improvement matters! So that should help definatlly. I try for cottages personally but not at the expense of averaging two squares of food.

Also road networks are critical to a cheap defence. Simply cant afford to defend your empire as city states.

As far as the number of cities once i start my capital on settler mode i dont stop until i run out of good spread out turf to make cities on. Its been 5 to 10 in the past.

As far as running out of money. Make sure your utilizing all the river squares near you right from the first turn. Some care can result in huge amounts of river squares that the computer might have otherwise took from you.

On tech choice civ4 so far seems much different then previous civs. You can get DEEP into the tech tree by skipping stuff. So make sure your using what you research right away. If its not something your going to use take a pass.

You might be overemphasising your production with archers. Its important to work those cottages.

Civ is a game of damned if you do and a damned if you dont game. What i mean is what do archers serve you if you get behind and still loose? So make sure your doing just enough and not anymore in terms of shield emphasis. The rest is commerce commerce commerce. Also the computer tends to be easy to appease. Just be amiable to everything the computer offers.

To this end the very first thing you should research for is buddism. It helps appease the neighbors at the start when they have your religion. This lets you deemphasis your military a bit.

Prince is the last level i can keep up with the computer on and i cant on monarch yet so take all this as a nonexpert opinion.

 

[Divi Filus]

I've been consistantly winning quite easily at prince; suggest you read my guide:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=143499
Its still a work in progress but I think it will help you out....

Some quick money tips:
1. Build cottages early on grassland and flood plain (avoid farms in cities where not needed (ie; make the city work the cottage - grow slower).
2. Settle on rivers to connect cities.
3. If you are running less than 70% science (and you can make research, ie; preAlphabet) - make a settler and a couple axeman and just "stake out the city location for the time being (use workers to predevelop) - use the umbrella method to protect territory.
4. After alphabet if AIs are all similar religion you are in trouble, you want them to hate each other. Get on good terms and induce wars if you can. Pick your friends (usually one neighbor) and your enemies (your neighbours neighbour) to ensure they are always at war. Give your "friend AI" units to help the war effort along if they are not winning.

DF

 

[jeremiahrounds]

oh to give you an idea of "only get techs you will use" I dont get archery typically =) Just thought it was relavent to the conversation.

It has a caveat. I usually do the romans simply cause its the first civ i started with and ive structured my play around it.

The primary value of archery is not archers. And that applies to everyone. Your much better to get a couple of your favorite early techs out of the way (buddism for me!) then make a beeline for bronze working. axemen are the problem with archers.

Axmen come to fast for archers. And axemen chop up archers badly. Also the AI doesnt typically engage before axemen. Its primarily barbarians that your archers are dealing with. And here is the rub: barbarian archers can be handled by enough warriors and barbarian axemen cant be handled by your archers easily.

The result is archery in itself is a poor tech because the archers themselves can be done without.

However! Horse archers are a potent unit! And that has a prerequisite of archery.But this is why i mentioned my caveat. Romans can typically get by with just their praetorians that share a similiar era as horse archers (they are tad later however if you make a beeline for iron they arnt) so often your choosing between horse archers and praetorians when you build. While a mix is nice i find a straight bunch of praetorians is plenty.

None of this would be worth doing but it gains me two techs i dont need to get for defending myself that every other civ is basically required to get. My defence consist of warriors->axmen->praetorians-> catapults-> etc. Any tech that can be done without is another tech you gain faster so this seems efficient to me.

Now can other civs get by without archery? I dont know.

 

[Ante]

It is crucial to control your maintenance cost so build courthouses in every city and make sure that your economy can handle an expansion before you expand. The key to a fast expansion is to have your cities grow fast so that they actually pay for themselves. Small cities cost as much as a big city in maintenance but doesn't generate as much income. A bad way of expanding is by war as your conquered cities will be in resistance for a couple of turns thus adding to your maintenance cost but not generating any income. So try to build your economy first and go to war second.

 

[Rasplorien]

thanks so far for the advice -- I'm about finished with a game on Noble and have had the top score most of the game. There's a lot of wars going on so it's deterring the computers from attempting a science victory.

I didn't automate this game and I created a lot of cottages - this worked wonders.

Only one other Civ started on my continent and another civ was 3 water tiles away. I primarly spent the game wiping them out to keep the most land. When the other civs started dropping settlers on the razed cities, I knocked them out as well - playing defensive this game.

Perhaps my trouble with getting to currency and other later techs early on was my lack of funds to research (automated workers not making cottages) - I'll try again on Prince after I beat this game on Noble.

 

[rgbender62]

I've been following this thread with some interest because my experience has been similar. I kick ass on Noble level (won 5 out of 5 games: 3 via Space Race, 2 via Domination) but when I shift to Prince level I generally get my ass kicked! Out of the 8 Prince level games I have played I have only won 3 and all of these have been on points (Time victories). The game seems to make a drastic shift between Noble and Prince levels because the strategies that work well on Noble level don't seem to cut it at all on Prince level.

Again my experience is similar. I start off strong and get 4 or 5 cities out there. I push so that I get the essential resources (horses, copper, iron, stone, marble) and I get a decent military up and running. I generally have my research level at 90 to 100 percent and seem to be climbing the tech tree fairly well. With the stone and marble resource you can usually get the Wonders built before your neighbors although you might not get them all unless you get lucky with Great Engineers (go for Pyramids just because they dramatically increase your odds for GE's). In short I seem to be doing pretty damn good and usually am at the top of the heap in ranking. Then it all starts to decline.

The AI's suddenly seem to make huge tech leaps and have 4, 5, 6 techs more than me. I don't know how you get them to trade for tech because they sure as hell never want to trade me except on the most unfavorable terms (2 tech for 1 kinds of deals, or their tech for my tech and a huge amount of cash). Clearly they are trading with each other and doing so on an ongoing basis. This then leads to other unpleasant consequences.

I have noticed that the AI's are VERY agressive when they get a tech advantage over you. If they get to knights before you, they will attack. If they get to cavalry before you, they will attack. If they get to tanks before you, they will attack. So, the situation I seem to always find myself in is that my neighbors get tech advances before I do and then attack me as soon as they can. Usually I can fend them off, but it slows me down and makes the tech problem worse. By the end game the AI's seem to be able to get to Robotics and build Mech Infantry usually about the time I am just getting to first generation Tanks. Which means that my only hope of preventing them from getting a Space Race Victory is to ruthlessly attack them and disrupt their economies. As I noted earlier, all of my victories have been due to preventing the AI's from getting spaceships, not on building my own.

Many of you had good tips and suggestions but what I want to know is how many of you are consistently winning Space Ship Victory at Prince Level. If you can do that, please give us some clues! At Noble level the game seemed as if a variety of strategies were viable and that naked aggression was even "gently" discouraged. At Prince Level the game seems to be all about warfare and trying to screw up the other Civs. Because of the maintenance issue for cities empire building doesn't seem to be a vialble strategy so all I have found that works is "slash and burn" everyone else. Surely there must be more?

 

[GenericKen]

For a builder game, specialize your cities (especially early), and prioritize your techs/wonders. Commerce is the lifeblood of any civ, and if you've achieved a tech lead, see what you can do with it. If you're up an agressive military tech, go ahead and ravage an opponent to put the fear of god in him (and perhaps cripple him for the rest of the game). If you're relatively safe with nothing much to do, if you can leave the AIs in the dust by focusing on scientific techs or commerce/civic techs (just this last game I bee-lined democracy and went universal sufferage while the AIs were still 3 techs away from it; I then canceled all my lux deals ).

Don't neglect your defenders either. Know which units give the most bang for their buck, and be sure to build a couple of attack units and collateral damage units to punish pillagers roaming through your land.

 

[Finite Monkey]

I may go against the trend here, but there is one thing that might help for you. Not the cure all but give it a try as the situation warrants. (I play on Prince or Monarch standard size map all the usual defaults)

I initially build more cities typically 10ish. If my science drops to 50% (my cut off) I stop then resume as soon as I can. On a standard size map on Prince this gives me slightly more land mass than my neighbors. On Monarch about the same. Do whatever you have to do to maintain your borders at first (chop/whip etc). You will be behind in score and tech until the middle ages to industrial age depending upon your rate of expansion. Then when it matters most (the end) you fly ahead of everyone. The rise in your score will be dramatic and I have yet to see it fail. So boiled down to a simple concept:

Don't be afraid of hurting your economy in the beginnig to win in the end.

 

[GenericKen]

The risk to that strategy, monkey, is that you'll have to both maintain that larger empire not only in gold and culture, but in military.

It's definately a good plan; as has always been in civ, more land = more $$$, but given that you're paying into those extra cities three times over, it's certainly a gambit (if you're alone on an island and can ignore culture and military, then by all means, fill the island out, but be sure to invest in seafaring to try to get contact and resource colonies ASAP).

 

[Snackwell]

The original topic is exactly where I find myself, too -- and I'm new to Civ. I played one laugher on Settler, then won easily on Noble a couple of times, then got *nowhere* on Prince on my first try there. The AI's tech advantage makes it hard to get any of the "first to..." bonuses, and the result lack of an early religion combined with the smaller happiness bonus means my cities are hitting their effective size limit way before I can do anything about it.

Chopping settlers to get up to 3 cities is what I'm trying in the game I'm in now -- I think I'm on a continent w/only one other civ, so if I can get some horse archers out quickly and at least cripple him, I should be ok for a while.

There does seem to be quite a step up when you move to Prince, though.

 

[Finite Monkey]

The risk to that strategy, monkey, is that you'll have to both maintain that larger empire not only in gold and culture, but in military.

It's definately a good plan; as has always been in civ, more land = more $$$, but given that you're paying into those extra cities three times over, it's certainly a gambit (if you're alone on an island and can ignore culture and military, then by all means, fill the island out, but be sure to invest in seafaring to try to get contact and resource colonies ASAP).

You are absolutely right and these are the very risks associated with this strategy. I guess the point I was trying to make is to not be so worried about taking an early economic hit that you avoid expanding 1-2 more cities when you could. 50% of research in the BC's though painful is worth it for me to build 2-3 more cities that pay off by the end.

To answer some specifics to try to be helpful. You can be a creative civ for the free culture, or try to build stonehenge early (I hate to do this but sometimes you have to).

For military in the early game it is almost always barbarian oriented for me. Build a few extra warriors and send them right outside your borders on hills to keep the barbarians back at least a few turns to allow me to adjust.

There certainly are ecnomic factors to having a larger empire, but with careful management (court houses markets etc.) you can quickly recover on Prince long before you fall to far behind tech wise.

I could go on and on, but I just made the transition recently myself and found the above tips the biggest change I had to make. I hope this helps. Like many CIV tactics there is no hard or fast rule. Sometimes it works sometimes you go with comething else.

PS- I hate islands if I'm isolated I restart thats just me.