[BTS] Prince Questions

[Nick723]

Let's take your example except we assume the non-capital cities make 20 commerce and your capitals both make 20 commerce for 60 total commerce with library bonus for 40 of it. Also assume you have costs of 48 gpt. You need 4 turns to accumulate 48 gold which is enough for one research round of 70 beakers. If you are running at 50% you would make 35 (well 34 actually due to rounding) beakers each turn except you also have costs of 50 gold against gains of 30 gold each turn so you would be bleeding 20 gold that you don't have. But wait, we can lower the slider further to 20%. We now make 14 beakers each turn while staying even on gold. After 5 turns we have accumulated 70 beakers exactly as in the binary research case. It can't possibly have been otherwise.

As I said the slider position does not affect your average research speed. Does you intuition not tell you that pushing the timing of gold accumulation and research around via the slider cannot possibly make 100 extra beakers appear out of thin air? Is that not completely obvious?

Indeed running the slider between 0-100% doesn’t improve average research speed. It can help you to get to a key tech one turn earlier however?

Eg. ‘Break even’ at 80%, takes 6 turns to next tech.
Working binary research, each turn at 0% funds 4 turns at 100%. In a binary approach you would get the tech in 7 turns, rather than 6. I think that’s what Odin was referring to, but I might be wrong.

 

[odin1981]

Indeed running the slider between 0-100% doesn’t improve average research speed. It can help you to get to a key tech one turn earlier however?

Eg. ‘Break even’ at 80%, takes 6 turns to next tech.
Working binary research, each turn at 0% funds 4 turns at 100%. In a binary approach you would get the tech in 7 turns, rather than 6. I think that’s what Odin was referring to, but I might be wrong.

In my example I provided, 3 turns at 0 funded one turn at 100%. So in what I provided in my example 56 base commerce plus 25% from the two cities that have libraries made 64 BPT. So those 4 turns gave you 64 beaker's.

However running at 50% for 4 turns would give you 32 BPT due to your beaker total being even and not subject to rounding errors. Because 50% divides by 2. 32×4 = 128 which is 2x the amount of beaker's that the four turns of binary would get you.

I didn't sleep last night so my math in the initial post might have been off. But let's say hypothetically you had 100 gold total remaining from huts/razing crappy cities/conquering cities etc. You know that you couldn't get anywhere near the amount of time at 100% to the tech that would fix your economy but at 50% if your BPT where even could run potentially 20 turns before being forced into binary because your broke. If 50% was -5 GPT. Where as if you went 100% research say you where -25 GPT no modifier buildings on wealth, no building wealth (currency), and having to pay all your city and unit maintenance from your gold reserve's you could only run 4 turns at 100% then again you are forced into binary do to bring broke.

The main thing is people confuse that sliders in 0% or 100% is always the way to go which is not true. Because they only think of commerce in a vacuum without the whole picture taken into account. That is why in the hypothetical example I provided I just said for 3 turns of 0 gave you 1 turn of 100 which would be the breaking point where 50% research wins out.

Perhaps due to lack of sleep I couldn't illustrate it as clearly and concisely as I intended due too being tired. But the situation I set up you would get twice the beaker's total over 4 turns at 50 then one turn at 100 with 3 turns of zero.

Hopefully now I laid out the situation better.

 

[Fippy]

So how can you run 4x 50% if you can use only 1x 100%?
You are going from 200% total possible to only 100%.

 

[odin1981]

If you have enough gold to run 4 turns at 50 over 3 at 0 and one at 100. The 3/1 would be 64 total over 4. Where as the 4 at 50 would be 32×4 so 128.

 

[odin1981]

So how can you run 4x 50% if you can use only 1x 100%?
You are going from 200% total possible to only 100%.

Because the civic cost, unit cost, city maintenance cloud's the issue. In a vacuum 100% and 0% is the best way. But when you take into account those top three into the equation it changes things around.

However I did preface everything by saying in a stretched economy things change. So a very aggressive REX or early conquest it becomes a different game per say.

If one is playing conservatively, not pushing thing's Say only 3-4 cities by 2000 BC, you do not run into economic problems like a player pushing say 6-8 cities by 2000 would run into. And really in extreme settings 9-12 cities only Darius or Capac have the means to stay afloat.

Sorry Fippy, my first reply was the math, I misread your question.

 

[Nick723]

Because the civic cost, unit cost, city maintenance cloud's the issue. In a vacuum 100% and 0% is the best way. But when you take into account those top three into the equation it changes things around.

However I did preface everything by saying in a stretched economy things change. So a very aggressive REX or early conquest it becomes a different game per say.

If one is playing conservatively, not pushing thing's Say only 3-4 cities by 2000 BC, you do not run into economic problems like a player pushing say 6-8 cities by 2000 would run into. And really in extreme settings 9-12 cities only Darius or Capac have the means to stay afloat.

Sorry Tippy, my first reply was the math, I misread your question.

I’m sorry but I don’t think that’s quite correct, other expenses don’t change the equation. I’d check your maths and if you’re still convinced then keen to see it. My attempt shown below - let me know if this wrong.

Imagine a fictional empire. We produce 40 commerce, have 20 expenses, and have a library in every city.

Research Rate/BPT/GPT:

@100% / 50 BPT (40 x 1.25) / -20 GPT (expenses)
@0% / 0 BPT / +20 GPT (40-20)
@50% / 25 BPT (20 x 1.25) / 0 GPT (20-20)

Ignoring rounding errors, all running your slider somewhere between 0 & 100% can get you is a tech one turn earlier. This is not because you are producing more beakers, but is just more optimal use of the available gold.

 

[odin1981]

I’m sorry but I don’t think that’s quite correct, other expenses don’t change the equation. I’d check your maths and if you’re still convinced then keen to see it. My attempt shown below - let me know if this wrong.

Imagine a fictional empire. We produce 40 commerce, have 20 expenses, and have a library in every city.

Research Rate/BPT/GPT:

@100% / 50 BPT (40 x 1.25) / -20 GPT (expenses)
@0% / 0 BPT / +20 GPT (40-20)
@50% / 25 BPT (20 x 1.25) / 0 GPT (20-20)

Ignoring rounding errors, all running your slider somewhere between 0 & 100% can get you is a tech one turn earlier. This is not because you are producing more beakers, but is just more optimal use of the available gold.

What changes the math is because of the costs of the above mentioned three, at 0% you are not getting full 100% GPT at 0%. At the timeframe of the game the only modifier building you can have which isn't cheap either is the library and only effects BPT. Maybe the settings I play at make it more noticeable epic/marathon than standard.

But 0% even though I didn't specify # of unit's say 12-15 military and 8 worker's. And the main unknown is city maintenance they aren't 3 space's away, on average enemy capital's are normally 10-12 away from my capital, enemy first city hopefully 7-9 away. But did they get a third city? Will say in this example they did but you can't figure where they pathed to settle.

Say you conquered two civ's, kept all cities, and took your first off a third civ. Your maintenance on deity/immortal is high like 4-6 for farthest away and 2.5-3.5 if they are second settles that moved towards you. This is the type of stuff that is ignored in the pure binary style way of thinking. A fast REX is cheaper city maintenance wise because you can control placement of the cities. But it does also add up just at a lower rate.

 

[sampsa]

@odin1981 Civic cost, unit maintenance cost and city maintenance cost are the same whether your -slider is at 0%, 50% or 100%. It doesn't matter if "you are not getting full 100% GPT at 0%", you are paying the same no matter what position the slider is at. I'd ask you to provide an example where it is possible to run 4*50% but not 2*0% + 2*100% but I know that I'd be giving you a mission impossible.

 

[odin1981]

@odin1981 Civic cost, unit maintenance cost and city maintenance cost are the same whether your -slider is at 0%, 50% or 100%. It doesn't matter if "you are not getting full 100% GPT at 0%", you are paying the same no matter what position the slider is at. I'd ask you to provide an example where it is possible to run 4*50% but not 2*0% + 2*100% but I know that I'd be giving you a mission impossible.

Post 12+ cities where like for the game I'm currently playing where at 0% with 13 cities I get +144 at 0% but at 100% I get -193 gold per turn. Which is at around 1100 BC currently.

 

[sampsa]

Yes, and? Try for example running 2*50% vs 1*0%,1*100%.

 

[Henrik75]

The major issue in this game was that there was a distant Civ (Darius) who outpaced me (Caesar) in growth despite the fact that I won a number of major battles against the other civs.

Hi friend, I think a main idea is that you want to have some sort of "pace" in your expansion and realize when you are behind or ahead the general pace. As others have said you had 3 cities way too late and fell behind in tech as a result.

Here's a general expansion pace I tend to aim for
2500BC- Have your second city placed or close to being placed
1800BC- Have your third city
800-1000BC- Have 5 cities - at this point you need to decide if you want to rush someone or keep expanding. On a standard map 6 cities is enough to win the game with, by culture or getting ahead in tech and crushing someone to get some vassals or more cities for yourself. I like to take someone out and get 10 cities usually. On larger maps however you can keep expanding, and aim for at least 10 cities by 1AD.

Technology goals (varies on difficulty, leader and start) - these ones are pretty key to beeline to strengthen your economy and teching rate.
Immortal and bellow, deity is often sped up a lot more.
2000BC must have bronze working at this point, and some sort of barbarian defense.
800-1000BC have Alphabet to tech trade
200-500BC have currency
1-300AD have civil service (might be later if you go for the great library)

If you're going to win liberalism aka be a good techer, you need to have at least 5 decent cities imo. On prince you could get away with 4, but aim for 6 at least to be safe.

One more tip I would give, is if you need 10 turns to get to something like currency, but you only can tech at 50% speed before losing gold, I would run the slider at 0% for 5 turns and turn it up to 100% after that, chances are I'd probably get it in 4 turns rather than 5 as within those 5 turns of saving, my cities would develop more, cottages would expand, and I might have build more libraries, therefor I can tech faster. Also if other civs research it OR you acquire BOTH techs that lead to it, it will be automatically sped up by 20%

 

[Zavior]

Also if other civs research it OR you acquire BOTH techs that lead to it, it will be automatically sped up by 20%

Just wanted to emphasize this, these are often overlooked aspects of binary research while the main focus is spent on the slider position.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

800-1000BC have Alphabet to tech trade
200-500BC have currency

At Prince and below I'll generally have Currency before Alphabet as otherwise you're just hanging around waiting for the AIs to tech something interesting. Might be slightly different of someone like Mansa is in the game but it's rare for the AIs to have much to trade at 1000BC except maybe some of the religious techs.

 

[Henrik75]

At Prince and below I'll generally have Currency before Alphabet as otherwise you're just hanging around waiting for the AIs to tech something interesting. Might be slightly different of someone like Mansa is in the game but it's rare for the AIs to have much to trade at 1000BC except maybe some of the religious techs.

You might be right, but I haven't played below Monarch in a very long time, I guess this logic is what I go for with Monarch/Emperor/Immortal type games. You can pick up religious techs and sailing often with alphabet, as I often skip those. Sometimes Iron working if you're lucky. Alphabet isn't bad anyway to speed up currency, and run research to get other techs quicker. However if you are that far ahead and aren't trading for any of your techs, then the difficulty is too easy imo. On emperor/immortal you can trade for alphabet fairly often between 500-1000BC, maybe on 1AD-500BC in prince/noble, not too sure.