Prince To Monarch - How big of a change?

Carnage04

Warlord
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Messages
209
This may be more of a general discussion thread, but I have recently gotten pretty good at winning on "Prince" (Warlords expansion pack and that advanced AI download) and plan to make my next game a monarch game. I can't believe how much reading these forums has improved my game. A few weeks ago I was struggling with Noble. I have learned to manage my cities a lot better. I think my late game war conducting still stinks, but that is something I have to work on.

How big is the jump up to Monarch? Is it A LOT harder then Prince? Are there any recommendations for things I should watch out for that may not have happened in Prince level games? (Really high level military production by AI? More "From Friendly to at war in one turn"? An even more serious Tech disadvantage? Early warmongering by AI?)

Carnage
 
I'd say it's a pretty big jump, although not as big as from Emperor to Immortal.

Prince requires no long term-term planning and you are never really threatened, while on Monarch you have to worry about about expansion pace, early resources and sometimes even AI teching. I just stumbled into a space race victory on Prince on a One City Challenge without really trying, which wouldn't happen on Monarch. I was just showing a friend the game basics, and had no real victory plan the whole game. When i got to Steel and noticed I was #1 in tech, I decided to go for Space Race, even though I thought it wouldn't be possible, but it turned out to be a large margin.
 
Monarch is unforgiving if you don't have a plan. Its the first speed bump for a lot of people (myself included) because they need to become a lot more focussed and unlearn some bad habits. Prince you can get away with little planning, just good day to day decisions. Monarch you need a longer term strategy that ecompasses defense, diplomacy and research. You need to be planning for a victory condition much earlier.

I think the way to evaluate whether you are ready for Monarch would be to answer the following:

1) In your games do you plan your research with particular goals in mind or meander through the tech tree based on the whims of the moment?
2) Do you constantly seek opportunities to trade with the AI and understand when you shouldn't trade?
3) When you start a war, do you find you planned a large enough army to achieve your objectives?
4) Can you quickly expand and establish a defense in the early game?
5) Are your cities planned with particular roles in mind?

Thats probably enough to get to Monarch. In my opinion its the most fun level - I've played and won on Emperor, but I keep going back to Monarch to experiment.
 
Invisible has given already a good list (diplo is another point you have to keep more attention on higher levels) but I think this applies to all of the higher levels. Generally speaking, the more advantages the AI has the more efficient the human player has to act.
This implies also such things as not wasting worker turns, ordering only the buildings the city needs (specializing), an efficient Great-People strategy, going to war for a particuliar goal, fighting with a good kill-ratio (by building the proper mix of units, using the right promotions) ...
Notching it up a level is a good idea when you feel you are always superior (nothing is as boring as mowing down longbows with infantry) or you are up for a challenge.
 
1) In your games do you plan your research with particular goals in mind or meander through the tech tree based on the whims of the moment?
2) Do you constantly seek opportunities to trade with the AI and understand when you shouldn't trade?
3) When you start a war, do you find you planned a large enough army to achieve your objectives?
4) Can you quickly expand and establish a defense in the early game?
5) Are your cities planned with particular roles in mind?

Thats probably enough to get to Monarch. In my opinion its the most fun level - I've played and won on Emperor, but I keep going back to Monarch to experiment.

I should be in the other thread, but since you were two were courteous enough to answer, I'm going to respond.

1. I set goals for techs. I have been making Buddhism/Hinduism my first goal, Bronze working the second, and then I start going for the worker techs as appropriate for my land condition. After that, I go for Alphabet (I think....let's you build libraries....right?)
2. I guess I don't understand when I shouldn't trade...besides trading away Iron, Copper, Horses, etc to someone I may attack. Otherwise, I check all the civs for techs I can get and extort as much money as I can for extra resources.
3. I'm ok at managing a war. Unfortunately, I havn't gotten to the point where my army was capable of attacking one of theirs.
4. I expand to three cities rather quickly (I think that is what many people do...) but I start to have financial problems, slow down to build stuff other than settlers, and end up boxed in with only 3 cities. One problem may be that I blow all my early units fighting Barbs, lest they kill my workers and pillage my improvements.
5. I've been trying to plan cities and my last game I had one really really financial city and one huge production city. I went with the strategy of chop rushing/whipping for wonders that had financial/science effects as well as a good great person rate. Another city probably could have been great but the barbarians kept trashing my improvements. The fourth city was supposed to be a Solid production city but there simply wasn't enough food to keep production high. It was actually a city i had taken culturally. I still ended up waaaaaay behind in techs and army units.

Is going for religion a mistake at the Monarch level? Should I research cheaper techs instead and have religion spread to me? What should my first Queue look like? I have been doing Warrior-Warrior-Settler-Warrior/Monument/Archer/Granary-Worker or something like that. second city is Warrior/Archer/Monument-Warrior/Archer/Monument/Granary-Worker/Settler

What is up with Imperialism? The Settler rate is supposed to be higher....but it didn't seem to be. I built London in the middle of an area with about 6 three food tiles, and some 1 food/2 Hammer tiles. I let it grow to size FOUR and it still was 25 turns....and I had health issues.

What is the best use of GP? I would think Prophets you build their building..but how about scientists? It seems in the long run the academy is best and I am always tempted to do that but should I be lightbulbing techs? How about Engineers? Rush stuff? Artists when on going for cultural victory? Use them as a border bomb?

Carnage
 
Another thing or two to throw out there, because right now I'm playing my first Monarch game (for my first game I probably shouldn't have put 17 civs on a standard map but ah well), is I've found out you need lots of military. One thing I consult frequently now is the power graph. I try to compare my graph to my neighbors, and if there's is spiking mine needs to be too. The AI starts very, very quick, but don't panic, you'll probably catch up.

Carnage said:
Is going for religion a mistake at the Monarch level? Should I research cheaper techs instead and have religion spread to me? What should my first Queue look like?

It depends on a few things, if you did like I did on my first Monarch with 17 AI's, don't go for a religon (at least an early one) unless you start with mysticism. If you're playing with like 3 of them, I'd say go for it. As for what your first build queue should look like, it may be because of inexperience I say this, but I don't think there really is a right answer, it depends really. If you start with a warrior, you might not need to build one right away. If you start with say agriculture, and you have a wheat field in your fat cross, go worker first.

I say you pick your civ, generate a game, tell us all the settings and post the starting screenshot and we'll see from there (and hopefully someone more experienced then me can help you).
 
I use to build several warriors right up front, but I found you don't really need the military right from the start. If you go for BW, your first axeman will come out about the time the barbs upgrade to warriors from animals. Since animals won't enter your borders, you don't need to fend them off. This will allow you to put the experience into your axeman instead of your warriors and get level 3 promotions. I use to try to upgrade my vet warriors to axeman, but it just took me to long to upgrade them and tech suffered terrible. So...now I try to time my first settler to BW, let that second city be my initial defense builder producing axeman, which will hold off the barbs. Now my capital is freed up to produce workers and my second settler. I actually like the barbs now. As far as a religion, I quit going for it. For a long time I really got locked into that as I copied Sisitul's play guide, now I hope a neighbor founds a religion and that becomes my first target. I then hook up whatever growth techs I need, the go for IW. By then I have a good defense and a defense set up for my swordsman. Build 4 swordsman and go for my neighbors capital or holy city if it is not the capital city. I find the enemies capital city is a great spot to make my GP farm and usually goes well with my research path. After I finish IW, I shoot for Literature so I can try to put the GL in my capital and the National Epic in my enemy's capital. After that, if the enemy has more than one city, I try to raze them. Once I get him down to one city, I go on the defense until I can get him to talk, then declare peace and get ALL of his techs from the surrender. Which I then use to trade for whatever I can with whomever I have met. I then try to build initial infrastucture. I usually wind up with a third civ that is not so advance and 4th neighbor that is starting to get ahead a bit. This is the point where I really get undecisive.
 
I had to go to an earlier archery in general for monarch after a half dozen horrible barbarian events interspaced between games. I said to myself "you know... not getting an early archery is why the barbarians are doing this to me"

So I build zero warriors and head straight to archery now and thats been helpful on monarch. But its kind of a thing where you can get away with not doing it two out of three times and then on the third time you get burned hard when you realize "you didnt get copper or horses hooked up and you have no archery and jesus christ will these barbs stop coming and is that an axemen im so boned"

I mean part of the problem of just going for axmen... is now you need to race to archery if copper isnt around. Archery is a sure thing.

Im kind of curious for the people saying they dont get archery (which is how I used to be before playing almost all my games on monarch) if they are honestly sort of washing over the times they get into a bit of trouble for still having warriors far to late in the game.
 
I can't say your wrong jeremia, I just try to cover as much ground as I can with my warrior. I don't hug the coast with my initial warrior "scout", I just uncover land as quickly as possible until I find bronze and the set him up for my settler to jump off my border to escort him to the mines. My workers are building a road to the mine and if they get an escort great, if not, oh well. No barracks in the second city, just straight for an axeman. As soon as the captial gets bronze, if needed, straight to building an axeman. Usually..."usually"...it works.

Edit: whip the axe if needed
 
I should be in the other thread, but since you were two were courteous enough to answer, I'm going to respond.

1. I set goals for techs. I have been making Buddhism/Hinduism my first goal, Bronze working the second, and then I start going for the worker techs as appropriate for my land condition. After that, I go for Alphabet (I think....let's you build libraries....right?)

Writing lets you build libraries.

There isn't a single tech order that works. What I do is have a list of goals that I keep updating. The goals are based on the game I want to play and my starting situation. They might be things like:

- Secure defensive tech - bronze or animal husbandry
- Key worker techs that will help early growth
- Religious techs IF I start with mysticism and can realistically found a religion.
- Techs enabling key early wonders if they are part of my strategy as opposed to an early rush.

The priority I put on them will be different from game to game. But you know that you are doing it right when things come together. Eg your defenses are hooked up before barbarians arrive, your city is working good tiles because you researched the right worker techs, your workers are never idle, early wonders become feasible because you researched the tech early enough to win the wonder race (or you avoided the wonder - if you end up trying and failing it probably means your tech order is off) etc.

All of these compete - but often you will see a right way of doing things where doing them in the right order accelerates your growth. Most often its being ruthless about not researching things you don't need immediately and aren't part of your plan.

2. I guess I don't understand when I shouldn't trade...besides trading away Iron, Copper, Horses, etc to someone I may attack. Otherwise, I check all the civs for techs I can get and extort as much money as I can for extra resources.

If you trade too often you can reach the "We think you are too advanced" limit. You don't have to worry about this with friendly civs, Mansa or if you are both weak in power.

The other main reason for not trading is diplomatic. You are often better off trading with a handful of friends and not trading with people they don't like. Your friends will like you more and give you better deals. Trading with everyone risks annoying everyone and not having any close friends.

3. I'm ok at managing a war. Unfortunately, I havn't gotten to the point where my army was capable of attacking one of theirs.

I would suggest winning some wars on Prince before going to Monarch. Depending on your starting situation you might be forced to conduct an offensive war to expand and catch up.

4. I expand to three cities rather quickly (I think that is what many people do...) but I start to have financial problems, slow down to build stuff other than settlers, and end up boxed in with only 3 cities. One problem may be that I blow all my early units fighting Barbs, lest they kill my workers and pillage my improvements.

You may not be expanding as quick as you think you are. Using slavery and chopping you can get three cities our quite quickly - often before the barbarians are a big problem. Your second city should ideally secure you a military resource (horses or copper) and you will need some troops. Axes and chariots both have good win percentages against barbarian archers and two per city should give you good defense. You can also reduce barbarians significantly by removing the fog of war.

Three cities shouldn't cause any significant financial problem. You will need to drop the slider but thats OK.



5. I've been trying to plan cities and my last game I had one really really financial city and one huge production city. I went with the strategy of chop rushing/whipping for wonders that had financial/science effects as well as a good great person rate. Another city probably could have been great but the barbarians kept trashing my improvements. The fourth city was supposed to be a Solid production city but there simply wasn't enough food to keep production high. It was actually a city i had taken culturally. I still ended up waaaaaay behind in techs and army units.

You really want more cities than that. At least six good cities so you can build things like Oxford. Which is why an early war is often necessary on Monarch.

Barbarians shouldn't be a problem once you get into the AD years - all the land will be settled by someone (or at least within visibility of a city), except for ice or desert regions that you can leave a warrior or scout on to stop barbarians from spawning. On Monarch the AI's help a lot - some games you have no barbarian threats at all because the AI's have so many units and cities that barbarians can't spawn.

Is going for religion a mistake at the Monarch level? Should I research cheaper techs instead and have religion spread to me? What should my first Queue look like? I have been doing Warrior-Warrior-Settler-Warrior/Monument/Archer/Granary-Worker or something like that. second city is Warrior/Archer/Monument-Warrior/Archer/Monument/Granary-Worker/Settler

Going for Hinduism / Buddism is a mistake if
a) You don't have mysticism
b) Its not part of your plan (if your plan is an early rush with Ghengis Khan then its not a priority).

You will need to secure some happiness though. If you don't go for a religion (you can use Oracle to get Theology or Code of laws for a later religion too) then you need some other source of happy. Good starting resources, Charismatic or prioritizing Monarchy are all options.

A good build order that I like is:

Worker/Warrior/Settler/Warrior/Settler with the second city building worker first and then troops. Your build order leaves workers very late. Which means your cities are working poor tiles. I probably get my third city established around the same time your second city is established.

What is up with Imperialism? The Settler rate is supposed to be higher....but it didn't seem to be. I built London in the middle of an area with about 6 three food tiles, and some 1 food/2 Hammer tiles. I let it grow to size FOUR and it still was 25 turns....and I had health issues.

Imperialism only gives a bonus to hammers. Not to the food that gets converted into hammers.

What is the best use of GP? I would think Prophets you build their building..but how about scientists? It seems in the long run the academy is best and I am always tempted to do that but should I be lightbulbing techs? How about Engineers? Rush stuff? Artists when on going for cultural victory? Use them as a border bomb?

There is no single best use - it all fits into your plan.

If you are behind the AIs and there are lots of good trading opportunities on the table, then lightbulbing is very effective - one GP may give you 4-5 techs.

If you are ahead or equal to the AIs then I wouldn't lightbulb. I would build shrines (if the religion is one I am committed to spreading), academy in my science center, rush a wonder that I really don't want to lose and settle otherwise.

Late game I would consider saving the GP for a golden age. If I have a big empire this can really pay off.
 
Talking about cutting it close!!!

axeman1.jpg
 
Ok. What I am going to do is drop the budhist/hindu rush and build a worker first turn. I'll let you know if I do any better. :) If you are bored, check back in a day or two and I'll post some saves and you can see why I got slaughtered.
 
Well, I certainly agree that building that worker first helps. I'm in the Early AD era and just finished pounding an Civ into dust. Don't know if I'll win this one yet, but I'm in the game at least. thanks!

Carnage
 
Yeah! I got it done! I can't believe how much the little tidbits that I picked up in this thread changed my game. I have won at the Monarch Level. Turned out to be a Space Race Victory. I chose to play as Liz, thinking I wanted the extra change to keep my economy from failing and the GP birth rate to lightbulb a lot. I felt that I couldn't win space race with how fast they tech, and I figured that cultural was out of the question with me needing a military to expand and to avoid being pummeled, so I thought a Diplomatic victory of a conquest victory would be the most likely.

Grabbed BW first, and chopped to get workers and settlers early. Went for Military type stuff like Iron Working.

First War - Started somewhere near 1 A.D. against Korea. Pounded them pretty good. Razed two cities, kept three, left two. Let him become my vassal.

Spent a lot of time after that building infrastructure and fixing my economy. Was actually falling pretty far behind in tech and "Soldiers". Was looking scary. Went for Lit to get involved in the trading. Did a lot of trading with Asoka, Cyrus, and Roosevelt....although I tried not to give up too much to Asoka because he was starting to run away.

Was geared up to attack Brennus. Out of the two Civs that I didn't have a decent relationship with, Brennus and Ragnar, Brennus was the weaker. I had Ragnar at "Cautious" and tried to keep him as happy as possible. Started to mobalize the troops and the Relationship between Korea and Ragnar exploded into war! I tried to figure out how to cancel my Vassal relationship with Korea but couldn't! Threw a TON of troops into one of my cities that Ragnar was concentrating in. He had a lot of Knights and then Cavalry coming my way. Kept him at bay with Catapauls/Cannon/Knights/Redcoats/Cavalry type stuff. Destroyed a lot of his units. He would NOT talk to me for a very long time. Finally, struck a deal of peace that cost me a tech.

Meanwhile, Brennus had somehow absolutely devestated Asoka. Asoka came to me with an offer of vassalage, which I knew would have had me crunched by two military powers and thus, dead, so I refused. He capitulated to Brennus but was still the tech leader.

Noticed that Ragnar was way behind in techs. He spent a lot of his military in a horrible campaign against me. Grabbed infantry and artillery and took it to him. Got tanks during the war. Grabbed a holy city and four other nice cities and razed about 4. It's about 1800 now, and as I was warmongering, I noticed Asoka built the Apollo program!

Totally rebuilt my new Empire and went crazy with any science/economy helpers. Traded like crazy to catch up in techs. Formed a defensive pact with Cyrus and Roosevelt to keep Brennus from coming after me. Cyrus was pretty tech advanced too. In the end, I didn't have time to conquest anymore. Brennus built the UN and I was the leader. Tried for diplo..Me, Korea, and Ragnar voted for me. Asoka and Brennus for Brennus. Cyrus and Roosevelt abstain. Made sure to get three gorges dam (Used some GE and cash to rush) and beelined towards the Space Elevator enabling tech. Went with "Research" in a lot of cities. Still looked like I could lose the space race.

I had built Scotland Yard for kicks and cranked out some spies. Cyrus suddenly was neck and neck with me for Space Race. I needed cash to sabotage his parts so I started selling techs to everyone else to raise the funds. Successfully sabotaged his engine. It might not have been necessary as I think I got all my techs before him. Finally won in about 2010.

What a game. It always seems, even in Prince....after you beat one civ you can usually beat another pretty soon after. This was much tougher, and I had to shift gears multiple times to win it. Great time. Thanks for the advice!

I think I'd better get MUCH better before trying the next difficulty level.
 
I'm going to advance to Monarch pretty soon. In my most recent Prince game I played incredibly carelessly and still dominated the game.
 
Yeah! I got it done! I can't believe how much the little tidbits that I picked up in this thread changed my game. I have won at the Monarch Level.

Congratulations! Looks well played and hard earned.

A couple of thoughts on your game report:
1) You need to put a high priority on alphabet to get involved in the tech trading before the AI's have everything you have. Getting Alphabet after your 1AD war is very late. Great people can be useful to lightbulb an expensive tech and trade it - Philosophy is a good one.

2) If you have an aggressive neighbour like Ragnar, you either need to attack them, or you need to keep them busy by bribing them with tech to attack someone else. Bribing Ragnar to attack Brennus if possible might have been a good move. Or alternatively bribing Brennus to attack Ragnar after you have declared war on Ragnar (he won't before since he is weaker).

3) When Ragnar attacked you, could you have bribed anyone else to join in the war? Getting an AI dogpiled can help enormously - you might have been able to start capturing his cities in that war.

4) Taking Asoka's vassalage agreement might have been a help. Combined you look stronger to an AI and they will be less likely to attack you. You would have denied Brennus a vassal and gained a good trading partner whose research you could influence.

5) Three gorges dam is rarely worth it - its effectively a health benefit wonder since you will want to build coal plants in all your production cities as soon as you can anyway.

6) Going wealth is usually better than building research if you can raise the slider because of it and get more of your science generated in cities with the best multipliers.
 
Congratulations! Looks well played and hard earned.

A couple of thoughts on your game report:
1) You need to put a high priority on alphabet to get involved in the tech trading before the AI's have everything you have. Getting Alphabet after your 1AD war is very late. Great people can be useful to lightbulb an expensive tech and trade it - Philosophy is a good one.

2) If you have an aggressive neighbour like Ragnar, you either need to attack them, or you need to keep them busy by bribing them with tech to attack someone else. Bribing Ragnar to attack Brennus if possible might have been a good move. Or alternatively bribing Brennus to attack Ragnar after you have declared war on Ragnar (he won't before since he is weaker).

3) When Ragnar attacked you, could you have bribed anyone else to join in the war? Getting an AI dogpiled can help enormously - you might have been able to start capturing his cities in that war.

4) Taking Asoka's vassalage agreement might have been a help. Combined you look stronger to an AI and they will be less likely to attack you. You would have denied Brennus a vassal and gained a good trading partner whose research you could influence.

5) Three gorges dam is rarely worth it - its effectively a health benefit wonder since you will want to build coal plants in all your production cities as soon as you can anyway.

6) Going wealth is usually better than building research if you can raise the slider because of it and get more of your science generated in cities with the best multipliers.

Invis, this is off topic but do you know if building 3GD will remove the -2 health from cities that have both coal and hydro? Or for tha matter, if you have a city with a coal plant, and you build a hydro plant (regular style, no 3GD), do you get the 2 health back?! Just wondering, thanks. I've taken to avoiding coal plants and beelining Plastics and building 3GD ASAP, but if 3GD can retroactively remove that -2 from the coal plants, I think I may have interpreted the game all wrong, UGH.
 
Congratulations! Looks well played and hard earned.

A couple of thoughts on your game report:
1) You need to put a high priority on alphabet to get involved in the tech trading before the AI's have everything you have. Getting Alphabet after your 1AD war is very late. Great people can be useful to lightbulb an expensive tech and trade it - Philosophy is a good one.

2) If you have an aggressive neighbour like Ragnar, you either need to attack them, or you need to keep them busy by bribing them with tech to attack someone else. Bribing Ragnar to attack Brennus if possible might have been a good move. Or alternatively bribing Brennus to attack Ragnar after you have declared war on Ragnar (he won't before since he is weaker).

3) When Ragnar attacked you, could you have bribed anyone else to join in the war? Getting an AI dogpiled can help enormously - you might have been able to start capturing his cities in that war.

4) Taking Asoka's vassalage agreement might have been a help. Combined you look stronger to an AI and they will be less likely to attack you. You would have denied Brennus a vassal and gained a good trading partner whose research you could influence.

5) Three gorges dam is rarely worth it - its effectively a health benefit wonder since you will want to build coal plants in all your production cities as soon as you can anyway.

6) Going wealth is usually better than building research if you can raise the slider because of it and get more of your science generated in cities with the best multipliers.

I was bribing the hell out of Ragnar to stay away from me, but he apparently had some BIG problems with the Korean vassal state. At the time that Asoka offered Vassalage, it looked like I would have been opening up a two fronted war against two tough opponents.

I am surprised that Three Gorges isn't worth it. It IS a lot of hammers but I thought the return may be bigger.

I actually have played two more Monarch games and really had an easier go at it. I played the Romans for the first time ever and they seemed really really powerful. I'm going to try to win a few more games and jump ahead to....Emperor or whatever is next.

My last game, I lightbulbed and got CoL and founded Confucianism pretty quickly and it spread like wild fire. Ragnar adopted it and he was a VERY handy ally for a large part of the game. He was constantly way behind in the tech tree. I kept trading him techs for some pretty decent sums of money and also trading him techs to help me warmonger. I kept away from Free Religion for a longer time than I expected just to keep him on my good side. I think the "We care for our brothers and sisters of the Faith" modifier was actual +6. It was a blast when Montezuma decided to Declare War on me during a rebuilding phase and suddenly he was getting pounded on the other side by the Viking Empire. ;)

I have taken the advice of others and managed my trading much more carefully. It has made a huge difference having Civs that are willing to go to war for you instead of having only Civs that were lukewarm to me and civs that hated me. I'd done Space Race, Domination, and Cultural on Monarch so I don't feel like such a one trick pony. :)
 
Invis, this is off topic but do you know if building 3GD will remove the -2 health from cities that have both coal and hydro? Or for tha matter, if you have a city with a coal plant, and you build a hydro plant (regular style, no 3GD), do you get the 2 health back?! Just wondering, thanks. I've taken to avoiding coal plants and beelining Plastics and building 3GD ASAP, but if 3GD can retroactively remove that -2 from the coal plants, I think I may have interpreted the game all wrong, UGH.

Yes you will get the health back with either 3GD or the hydro plant.

But generally the cities that you build your coal plants in are production cities and aren't too health limited because they are working lots of mines. And even if they were they could easily and quickly build health buildings to deal with it. In my opinion the 3GD comes too late - you would always build the coal plants anyway so its only benefit is health.
 
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