[BTS] Earth 18 civs - How to Win (Monarch-Emperor) : 4th game - Japan (Immortal :eek: ) - many calculations, I would appreciate replays from the pros

[jorissimo]

You have a rule for yourself, how to decide, whether to build markets?
Or a rule, how to decide, when not to build forges?

Market sometimes in the capital for extra gold and happiness. Otherwise only late game for happiness.

Forges are a harder call. I tend to build them when going for longer games. It really depends on when you expect to win. Kind of like courthouses for me.

 

[jorissimo]

Maybe we should settle the 2 bad islands in the south even when theyare not really good just to defog the area? Or station a boat there?

That doesn't seem worth it. You'd to settle or fogbust all of Australia to make that work. I'd just have a stack of Triremes guard the entrance to your waters. Btw, barb galleys seem to be spawning near Sri Lanka, so I'd fogbust that area.

The AP is built. Now it may be a good idea to build temples.

I like to build temples and monasteries in the AP religion. Not everyone agrees though.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

OK, so let's create a guideline:

- Granary: Every city
- Lighthouse: Every city with seafood
- Barracks: Every city, which is planned to contribute land army production
- Forges: Every city (When whipped, minimize overflow (we lose 20%))
- Libraries: Every city, which can have 20+ in late classical era or has too much food
- AP-Temples: As "Spiritual" everywhere
- AP-monastries: Every city, which can have 20+ in late classical era
- Market: Shrine cities or cities with extraordinairy amounts of or when happiness is needed
- Courthouses: Everywhere, where upkeep is higher than 10 , as "Organized" higher than 4
(remember, we get 2 and the possibility to set a spy, which can be slightly stronger for teching than a scientist)

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

OK, so let's create a guideline:

Don't. A guide already exists.

H

Thread 'All Civ 4 BTS buildings ranked and explained - Henrik'

Apr 30, 2024

Hello, I did a video ranking and explaining my reasoning behind it on all the buildings in Civ 4. I believe this will be of good value to learning players, especially those struggling to get past monarch/emperor to help prioritize your hammers on the correct stuff. Interested to see what learners have to say to it as well as more experienced players if they'll agree or disagree. If you don't want to listen to me blab for an hour I attached a simple picture below of the end result.
After some review you could make a case to put walls into C tier, as it can be good to buy time from surprise...

• Henrik75
• Replies: 144
• Forum: Civ4 - Strategy & Tips

• 

Cities on the Earth18 map does not have many tiles to work. City populations should be smaller. City improvements that increase happiness and health are less useful.

I think markets belong to corporation headquarters and strong religious (40+) shrines.

Forges are a harder call.

Production city for building world wonders. Only applicable for some games.

Sometimes the capital city if representation and bureaucracy.

Cities that will build spaceship parts.

Heroic epic city. Moai statue city.

My personal: forge, globe theatre, drydocks.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 6: The first war: We want to integrate China (T121 - 150, chapter 3/3)

Let's analyze the situation:
1. In comparison to my other games I have no wonder and thus need to work just from my size. Demographics lower my commerce-rating, because I produce much less culture. Means: Even when I am not listed as number 1, I can have the highest science/wealth rate.
2. The AP is built. We are a major landpower now and need to make sure, no AI can get away with a diplomatic victory. Let's look at the states:

Frederick is the favorite, maybe because Hatty declared war to France because I bribed her. Frederick can be blocked by me, Hatty, Saladin and maybe later Dschingis. This should suffice.

3. Diplomatic situation:
AIs, which are not at war and have the fist: Cathy, Dschingis
Cathy is Friendly (I gave tribute/help 2 times) and would maybe go against Hatty, Isabel or Mansa. No real danger.for now
But is there anyone, who could give this war flavor in vasaling China?

4. Technological situation / Liberalism / Circumvation

I should sell HBR to Hatty. Got 375 . Fine!
And Mansa got it too for 160

Liberalism: Frederick is on good track to Liberalism. He has Philosophy and can work on Paper. It is very possible, he will win this.
Learning: Instead of building an academy, bulb Philosophy instead

Circumvation: Saladin has Compass and is right before Machines, so he can start Optics soon.
Saladin needs 3-4 turns more to come to america. I can win this, when I go to Optics now.

_________________

I like to win Circumvation. But I like Liberalism too. After Civil Service I need to decide again. Paper is a useful tech for Circumvation. So I would delay Engineering for now and need to hurry conquering China.

5. Conquering China:
To conquer China mainland is a no-brainer. Just move forward and produce enough catas. Maybe throw everything in for Peking. I expect Dschingis to declare war soon and this last city in the north may be mongolian then. I want to wipe China out, so I need to concentrate on this little island here:

There's a spearman inside, te city is on a hill, but one axe and one crossbow should do the job. When I approach, he can maximum whip an archer, but he may not give him any promotions. When I make sure, I attack with 2 galleys and 4 units. But I cannot afford this so soon. Maybe we have to crack this later. I prepare a crossbow in my capital and at Soundjata-Eleph.

___________________________

T144:
China sacrificed again an attacking city to conquer back Nanjing. Now my troops can march forward. Hatty asked for Feudalism in exchange for Theology. For me that is an OK deal. Cheaper paper technology and the possibility to get better troops without vasalry.

Got Shanghai, 209 and an academy. Great! Here I build a monastery.

T146:
We are standing right before Peking. The first war weariness is breaking in. Added with these whips we may have problems. Some cities are unhappy the next 50 turns... China is getting their Feudalism in 8 turns. That means: The may won't get it anymore.

T147:
Peking is bombed down now. Next turn we will overtake. Our little boat is on its way to Chinas island in the south. and may need ~8turns.
Technologically we are boosting now. The chinese cities come out of anarchy mode one by one and now they grow rapidly. Let's do a city concept:

Xian:

Xian has poor food, so we need to build some farms to let it grow. It will be have 1 tile with 4 and 4 tiles with 3
In Xian is no whipping allowed so far, and it wouldn't deploy specialists. Xian will get windmills and later, when it is grown up, we build cottages instead of farms. This city is medium at production, and relatively strong in commerce. It is a medium city and contribute both military and economically.

Nanjing:

Nanjing has 4 food resources, a massive amount of hills and a bit of commerce on top. This structure will help us to whip the base structures out as fast as possible. Ideal size for this period is 3-4. After that Nanjing will work mines and get the Ironworks.It is our primarely city for wonders. Or we use it military and build Hero Epic?

Guangzhou:

Another great city. The massive amount of food resources make it an ideal spot for massive whipping. We will start similarly like Nanjing, but add the Moai here. Should the Hero Epic build here?

Shanghai:

Shanghai is a standard primarely commercial city. We will change the rivertiles to cottages and maybe keep 1 mine and build a windmill here. We will whip the important structures early and let it grow then. It won't be a very big city.

Peking will be a production city, like in our last game and Chengdu mostly commercial with massive food.

Technologically noone has Paper and noone has Compass. So maybe we can win both races.

T148:
Played a bit sloppy and lost 5 troops for Peking. 4 catas, a crossbow.

Saladin has Optics. I need to tech too. My map sharing will make the difference then. The first Caravel at south america will be mine. Switch Paper to Compass now.

T150:
Nearly finished.

Every bigger city in the empire builds research now to get Optics next turn. Thenafter we build a Caravel and set sail. China is finished like planned.

End of Part 6.

 

[jorissimo]

Circumnavigation is useless. You should go for Lib. Have a GP plan. Grow 3 of your most food-rich cities as much as possible. Do a GA with Paci + Caste. Starve out 2-3 GS, time it so that the first GS comes out of the smallest GP city, then the second smallest, then the largest. Use 2 of them to bulb Edu.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Don't. A guide already exists.

H

Thread 'All Civ 4 BTS buildings ranked and explained - Henrik'

Apr 30, 2024

Hello, I did a video ranking and explaining my reasoning behind it on all the buildings in Civ 4. I believe this will be of good value to learning players, especially those struggling to get past monarch/emperor to help prioritize your hammers on the correct stuff. Interested to see what learners have to say to it as well as more experienced players if they'll agree or disagree. If you don't want to listen to me blab for an hour I attached a simple picture below of the end result.
After some review you could make a case to put walls into C tier, as it can be good to buy time from surprise...

• Henrik75
• Replies: 144
• Forum: Civ4 - Strategy & Tips

• 

Cities on the Earth18 map does not have many tiles to work. City populations should be smaller. City improvements that increase happiness and health are less useful.

I think markets belong to corporation headquarters and strong religious (40+) shrines.

OK, that makes sense. So markets are not really useful until late-game, when they get cheap (2-3 turns), give substantial money and the game is long enough so it pays out. But this should be seldom.

Production city for building world wonders. Only applicable for some games.

Sometimes the capital city if representation and bureaucracy.

Cities that will build spaceship parts.

Heroic epic city. Moai statue city.

My personal: forge, globe theatre, drydocks.

At forges I think, they are good suited in every city, which can whip hard and is not completely hammerless. They pay out, when building wealth or military. Let's calculate: 120 cost = When 480 raw hammers are produced, they pay out. A city, which produces only 10 hammers, need 48 turns for this. A city, which whips 16 population, has made it too. And compared it would be only 120 or 120, which is not much at medieval.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Circumnavigation is useless. You should go for Lib. Have a GP plan. Grow 3 of your most food-rich cities as much as possible. Do a GA with Paci + Caste. Starve out 2-3 GS, time it so that the first GS comes out of the smallest GP city, then the second smallest, then the largest. Use 2 of them to bulb Edu.

Circumnavigation seems to be cheap to achieve from my actual position, so why not? Last game I saved 2 turns by this reaching america with galeons.

But your plan for bulbing into Liberalism sounds interesting. For now only Frederic may be dangerous in reaching Lib before me.
And I cannot make it in time, so researching it may be the easiest way to go.

In this game I will definitely take Astronomy instead of Nationalism. A GA is nice, but not that strong, when the leader is already spiritual and we have no mausoleum. But the massive trade from oversea will be definitely a gamechanger here.

 

[jorissimo]

Circumnavigation seems to be cheap to achieve from my actual position, so why not? Last game I saved 2 turns by this reaching america with galeons.

It's about focus. You need to focus on one thing at a time and in this case it should be Lib. Even 1 GS to help bulb Edu would help a lot. I think you should be able to get it.

Edit: to elaborate, Frederick is still quite far away from it. You really need to get CS asap though which you need for the Lib path anyway.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 7: Win the races and settle in Oceania (T151 - 170)
T151:
Chengdu is fallen. And I got 5 workers on top of this.

Hangzou still feel safe.

The Chinese have one last city. But where is it located? Seems that we need to share maps with Dschingis about this.

T152:
Frederic goes for Feudalism.

T153:
Now we need to find the last city. Deep in the north there was an horsearcher, which attacked a worker, I send out for spying. Was it a scout or is his last refuge there?

Found him!

And I saw, Persia is in Oceania too. I begin to like the thought, that he is next on my list... but after the capital he can be a vassal.

Egypt has Engineering. Why not trade?

T154:
Now here he is. I can wait 8 turns. Let's look, whether the spot is okay.

T155:
You cannot be that far starting in middle sea. But you have Compass. Show me your progress!

With the map I could sell my map to Julius and thenafter bought Arabias map. He is still far away from america. But I need to hurry now. I am only some tiles eastern.

This position is too bad. Raze it.

T156:
China vanished. And we found out, that Japan settled Oceania already. Persia has tried it, but took a really bad spot. Nanjing tries to build Sankore and another city builds Notre Dame for Failgold. Because we have AP religion, Sankore is great.

Germany distracts itself from Lib with unimportant techs. Only he and England can research Education, but England has no Philosophy yet.

T157:
I don't build any units actually. Let's switch to buerocracy. Soon we will change again to Theology and Vasalry, after Liberalism is mine...

T158:
Buahhhh. I hate it. This is a point, where markets can be build perfectly. We just whip it and get money AND happiness.

T163:
Finally, this should be all-in-all another 55 raw beakers.

Given, that my stustainable beaker-production is 280, this raised my research by minimum 20%!

T165:
I switch back to vasalry. In 5 turns even theology. But I need some more time to build up the infrastructure in my younger cities. We prepare the war against peria now. It seems that we can get Lib around T170.

We begin to plan the settlement of australia, while building up our army against Persia.

T167:
Chengdu flipped to Japan. OK then, but now we have a better relationship. Our chinese cities still build their infrastructure. But soon they contribute in our war efforts...

T168:
The settlement process begins again. When we analyze the diplomatic situation, we see: Julius, Toku and Isa are in war, Dschingis and Saladin plot something. I should send some of my army back to China, just for the case. And I set espionage on the mongols now. Even when both (Mongols, Arabia) could plot against Persia... just to make sure, Peking is safe... Liberalism in 3 turns, and it seems, that we can get it. The others haven't Education yet.

T170:
Finally, our last turn in this period. What happens now?
1. We seem to have won the Liberalism race and can choose Astronomy now. But we still haven't found the american civs. Actually we pass fireland
2. We begin our settlement process of Oceania and Australia. Marked are 3 spots. The southern one has gems, our first precious metal

3. We build up our army in india and begin to build up in China. The SE-asian cities support the settlement process with ships.

Our efforts worked out:

Tech lead (the others are behind):

We now look forward, whether the game is decided soon again...

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

It's about focus. You need to focus on one thing at a time and in this case it should be Lib. Even 1 GS to help bulb Edu would help a lot. I think you should be able to get it.

Edit: to elaborate, Frederick is still quite far away from it. You really need to get CS asap though which you need for the Lib path anyway.

Maybe it is the difficulty (Emperor). When planned accordingly and played optimally before, you seem to get tech lead easily at Emperor level. I must add, that I learned much from these games here, in this game especially optimal whipping techniques. And even though India may not have a productive start, the possibility to whip the army completely gives a massive boost. I never whipped my army completely before.

India has the problem, that it can lose every early wonder and must win over efficient land tile usage only. My former approach to get tech lead, spam wonders and win practically every race is not applyable here. Sankore was my first and only wonder here.

I get the feeling that efficient bulbing and GS-creation is a skill, which is only necessary on Immortal and Deity level.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Here's another optimization question:
I often have difficulties to decide, where I should build the National Wonders, especially here:

• Hero Epic
• National Epic

I am a bit late in building 'em. Reached Liberalism now and still haven't build both.

Is Delhi really a good choice for National Epic, or should I find another spot, like Cumaner? It has 4 food resources and spices as 5th.

What about Hero Epic? Here I see Central City, Soundjata-Eleph, Xian, Nanjing or Guangzhou (which has additionally Moai)

 

[jorissimo]

Here's another optimization question:
I often have difficulties to decide, where I should build the National Wonders, especially here:

• Hero Epic
• National Epic

I am a bit late in building 'em. Reached Liberalism now and still haven't build both.

Is Delhi really a good choice for National Epic, or should I find another spot, like Cumaner? It has 4 food resources and spices as 5th.

What about Hero Epic? Here I see Central City, Soundjata-Eleph, Xian, Nanjing or Guangzhou (which has additionally Moai)

National Epic: multiple food resources. Capital only if you have the Great Library.

Heroic: a city that will actually benefit from the +100% unit production. So not a city with ultra-strong production in and of itself. Also a city that you will actually use for building units and doesn't have more important stuff to do.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Part 8: Intermezzo (T171 - 184)
We are on winning path now, but must prove it a bit more. So for the next turns we further stabilize, get Liberalism, get Circumnavigation, settle australia and further build up our army. We look on Persia and maybe on Dschingis as our next aim. We will vassal both, before moving on. For that we create a decent medieval army.
T171:
Got Liberalism and Astronomy. And Persia is a good friend. I regret, I must get him by force soon... but maybe I don't keep any of his cities and give every city back?

We switch to theocracy now. Some of our new produced troops could have 3 promotions now...

T172:
Persia had the same idea. He should get the spot. It would be a city which is expensive, but not really strong. And when I vassal him, it is used by me anyways....

T173:
We won the Circumnavigation.

T175:
We finally have the biggest army on earth - with only 17 upkeep.

T178:
Won the Great Merchant from Economics. Next goal are riflemen. I keep the GM for a GA or Sids Sushi.

T179:
We traded Musics for Paper and Drama. Now noone can give me anything more.

T180:
Hatty gave us Divine Right for Education. Well... great! We begin to build Versailles now.

T183:
Now our new colony in Oceania is defended, workers plow the land. I want to vassal Persia now, before he can make things complicated. My army is ready.

After the war we can upgrade our brave maceman to rifleman with city-attack 2 or 3. That can be funny then.

But still we have no Hero Epic or National Epic...

Our overall empire at T183:


Australian colony: (slow growth, more commerce-driven)

India and SE-asia: Strong build, base of my eco

China and Himalaya: (the latter is only is for connecting 2 incense and make money from it)

I transport my palace to Nanjing now. This shall be my production center. 4 food resources, 6 mines, 2 big rivers and some villages/plantages are a great base to build. I think about building HE in Xian and Ironworks in Nanjing. For now I get back to Organized Religion and in 5 turns we go into Buerocracy & Caste.

T184:
We prepared everything for our hit into Persia. We declare war in this turn.

 

[jorissimo]

We traded Musics for Paper and Drama. Now noone can give me anything more.

Careful with the trade cap though. If it's a tech you can get yourself in a couple of turns it's not worth it. At some point they won't trade anything because they fear you're becoming too advanced.

Got Liberalism and Astronomy

Not convinced by this decision. Astro is important when you're isolated or on a continent with one or 2 neighbors. Could you have delayed it a bit to get a juicy military tech like Military Tradition?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Great Scientist: how to use "it depends". No easy rule.

No easy rule for forges and other city improvements either. The alternative to city improvements is reaching the next technology sooner using "produce gold / research" for some power spike.

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

Careful with the trade cap though. If it's a tech you can get yourself in a couple of turns it's not worth it. At some point they won't trade anything because they fear you're becoming too advanced.

The trade cap is not that bad. Even on Deity the most leaders allow 5 or 10 trades, and the ones, who disallow it, are weaker here. Only Rome maybe in danger of WFYHBT.

Not convinced by this decision. Astro is important when you're isolated or on a continent with one or 2 neighbors. Could you have delayed it a bit to get a juicy military tech like Military Tradition?

Yea, maybe I should think about delaying. At Immortal, is delaying typical? I thought, it can be good to cash the advantage in as early as possible instead of risking another AI gets it before.

But you may be right, I can see the research window for that.
Can the AI bulb techs?

 

[Master_Of_Ideas]

At all: I have a big stack here for attacking Persia now. Would you attack now or wait a bit longer? He has thre same tech level like me now, but his units are much weaker promoted.

You see my troops, nearly all of 'em >5XP and some even >10XP, left you see the garrison of Persian capital. The capital is on flatland. We have one Healing-2-elephant inside.

I need assumingly 10 more turns for Riflemen and then some turns for upgrading.
What is your rule of thumb, when to attack?

7 cities produce military, 1 produce Hero Epic and 1 produces palace. We have these civics:

Any suggestions?

 

[jorissimo]

Even on Deity the most leaders allow 5 or 10 trades, and the ones, who disallow it, are weaker here.

That's not a whole lot though. You risk losing some great trades late game because you traded for Drama. Definitely a big deal on immortal+

Yea, maybe I should think about delaying. At Immortal, is delaying typical? I thought, it can be good to cash the advantage in as early as possible instead of risking another AI gets it before.

I regularly delay it on immortal. You just need to keep track of who is close to getting it. In the early game early benefit is always better, but with Lib it's different. Best I ever did was libbing Communism in that recent Gandhi Noble's Club. I've also libbed Rifling in the past. But it really depends on the specifics of the game.

 

[jorissimo]

But these are general guidelines. Your game is won for all intents and purposes. You can definitely move up to Immortal.