Problems with naval combat in pre-magnetism era

[player1 fanatic]

In ancient age, galleys have same attack and defense ratings, which makes early naval combat useful, especialy if you need to sink some troop ships.

But, after Astronomy, when Caravles become available, naval combat is pretty much dead. No unit can touch Caravel until magnetism (exempt few UUs).


Some moding solutions:

1) Make Caravel get its defense rating reduced to 1
Pros: Caravel vs Caravel combat is possibile
Cons: Curragh and Galley could destroy Caravel, Dromons are superior to Caravels, Carrack is unbeatable until magnetism

2) Make Caravel get its attack rating increased to 2
Pros: Caravel vs Caravel combat is possibile, Dromons are not too dominating after Astronomy
Cons: Needs inflation of defense and offense capabilities of magnetism era units to be properly balanced


Any other ideas?

 

[toh6wy]

Who cares? AI sucks at naval anyway, especially this early in the game when they don't have the resources to build huge fleets. If you must take them out, just build lots and lots of galleys/caravels and take 'em out by attrition. (or if an enemy ship's in range, redline it with catapults/trebuchets you have around)

 

[morchuflex]

I definitely agree with Player1... It's a big issue and a major disappointment.
And attacking caravels with multiple galleys is no solution: with equal XP, the caravel wins 82% of the time! Even an elite galley has a 62% chance to lose against a reg caravel! on advanced levels, you certainly cannot afford such a terrible loss ratio, considering the CPs have a discount on whatever they build!
However, another and easy solution (in some distant patch?) would be to create a new 2-2 unit with no transport capacity but only military purpose (such as a War galleon), that would appear as the same time as the caravel. That way, caravels would be (as one might expect) hard to destroy for galleys, but not unstoppable.
Generally speaking, I would very much like to see each era offering at least 2 types of ships, one for transport and commerce, the other for naval dominance.

 

[troytheface]

Introducing the Dromon/Carra..thing , was a step in the right direction but i agree, there is no reason why there shouldn't be a Trireme ...hey i just thought of something, maybe every Civ should get a naval flavor unit, like a war canoe, or Chinese Junk, ect.
-maybe to confusing, at any rate there is no reason naval importance and battles should not be happening from the get go.

 

[steviejay]

when I was on holiday, after reading a book on the rise (and subsequent fall) of British Sea Power from 500AD to 1918 and also a book on the Punic Wars (which consisted quite heavily of naval engagements....... well in the first War anyway) I made several notes on Sea units in Civ. I was going to put it down and see what everyone though but then I realise people might not be too fussed about it, much prefering to talk about Civ4 but seeing as this thread is slightly related here goes-

At present the "Ship Time Line" goes-
Curragh
Galleys
Caravels
Galleons/Frigates
Ironclads
Destroyers/Transports/Subs
Battleships/Cruisers
Nuke Subs
AEGIS

1) I'm off the opinion that the gap between Galley's and Caravels is way too large. I was under the impression that maybe there should be something else between those two.... perhaps a cog or something to that effect, available with Engineering or something to that effect, it could be considered a galley with 1 more movement point or perhaps 1 more transport capasity.

2)A new unit should be made available, a Cutter. perhaps 1/1/5 ADM. No defensive bombardment or transport capasity. Its simply a water scout. Available with Navigation. Good for exploring the bits of the world still unknown. Basically a waterborne scout, discover the world or use as a forward scout for your main fleet.

3)One more thing I would change would be that Curraghs, Galley's and possibly even Caravels CANNOT pass through Ocean squares. this would make the Cutter more important and would also eliminate the "Suicide Galley" exploit because lets be honest, the Vikings and some Irish Monks aside, no one really went exploring uncharted waters until they had a better idea of how to do it.

4)Another additon would be the splitting of Nuke Subs. Changing into two forms-
The Attack Sub a high attack. Hidden to all except Destroyers, no cruise missile/tac nuke capasity. Essentially a hunter killer, used to attack convoys and other subs.

The Boomer. Low attack/defence. Completely hidden to all units except the Attack sub.People called boombers "holes in the water". They cannot be found by surface ships. They have an extended transport range..... say 2 tac nukes or 4 cruise missiles.

5)From new units, I now talk about new configurations. Again I highlight something which some people have talked about. Naval Great Leaders like Nelson or Nimitz. These leaders are formed just like MGL's, in battle. They can only build a fleet, water borne army. Similar to a normal army, increased attack and defence but no bonus movement to accomodate the need to stay in formation. If you get 3 fleets then you can make a Naval Academy, essentially the Pentagon. Also allows the construction of fleets without leaders.

6) With the research of combustion, ships can be formed into convoys. Similar to fleets however these are only temporary and can be broken up at anytime. It results in -1 movement however it does increase the defence of the whole convoy.

7) A tech change in my opinion. Navigation is necessary for Magnetism, I've never understood the fact that Navigation is a "dead-end" tech.

8) Units in ship, up until a certain point suffer from a health loss to highlight the conditions on ships at that time. Troops suffer scurvy and the like and as a result, cannot stay on ships for any great amount of time. ultimately it is possible for units to simply die from this, just as units can die if stationed in Jungles for too long.

9) One last addition I would make would be the introduction of a Naval Golden Age, essentially allowing for ships to be made quicker. An example of this would be the naval rivalry between the British and German Empires pre-WW1 in the quest to build more dreadnaughts (a song from the time was "We want 8 and we won't wait", in reference to the number of Dreadnaughts that Britain was building)

In conclusion (yup, be happy, I'm finished)-
Curraghs can only travel on coast squares. No Transport
Galleys can travel on sea squares but with 50% chance of sinking. One transport capasity.
Cogs are similar to Galley's but with 2 transport capasity
Caravels are same as Cogs but faster.
Cutters can travel anywhere. Fast, but no transport capasity.
Frigates become less offensive, more scouting(Nelson called his Frigates the "eyes of the fleet) +1 movement also can carry 1 unit, as ships of that time frame usually carried Royal Marines.
Galleons, Ironclads, Destroyers, Transport, Submarine, Battleship, Cruiser, AEGIS and Carrier, no change.
Nuke Subs have already been mentioned.

So thats my opinion on Naval Combat and exploration in Civ3 and ideas on how it could be improved. Anyone got any other ideas?

 

[MSTK]

The only reason I use my Dromons is for city bombardment

 

[morchuflex]

The only reason I use my Dromons is for city bombardment

Since I usually play on archipelago, I find Dromons immensely helpful. With them, I can decide who is allowed to sail and who isn't. I can completely prevent enemies from colonizing overseas. Coastal bombardment is nice, but naval domination is better. In fact it's an unbalancing unit for any map involving a lot of sea action.

 

[socralynnek]

In ancient age, galleys have same attack and defense ratings, which makes early naval combat useful, especialy if you need to sink some troop ships.

But, after Astronomy, when Caravles become available, naval combat is pretty much dead. No unit can touch Caravel until magnetism (exempt few UUs).


Some moding solutions:



Any other ideas?

My proposal:
Caravel gets 1 attack and 1 defense but get +1HP to make them at least a little stronger than Galley. (something like 1.5 attack and 1.5 defense would be good, you can get it by multiplying all ship values with 10, (leading to 15.15) but then bombard strength have to be readjusted, too.)

 

[Vizurok]

Steviejay, excellent post.
I would like to say a great border between sail ships and modern ships. A Frigate CANT beat an ironclad, can she?
So, we make an independent sail ship class, and an independent modern ship class. Sail ships get new values up to 20 (e. g.)
Galley 5.5
Caravel 8.8
Galleon 10.12
Pirate 12.4
Frigate 20.14 (e.g.)

And modern ships could get their own values...

 

[Bibor]

I already talked about the remaking of armies in another thread, but only 3 people replied

-kirby

 

[Lennon]

5)From new units, I now talk about new configurations. Again I highlight something which some people have talked about. Naval Great Leaders like Nelson or Nimitz. These leaders are formed just like MGL's, in battle. They can only build a fleet, water borne army. Similar to a normal army, increased attack and defence but no bonus movement to accomodate the need to stay in formation. If you get 3 fleets then you can make a Naval Academy, essentially the Pentagon. Also allows the construction of fleets without leaders.

6) With the research of combustion, ships can be formed into convoys. Similar to fleets however these are only temporary and can be broken up at anytime. It results in -1 movement however it does increase the defence of the whole convoy.

While the idea of fleets may make sense with the current army concept, I feel that that should be revamped anyway. I don't much like the current way armies work (mainly because I hate stacks anyway). But I think your convoy idea has some merit though.

 

[jst666]

3)One more thing I would change would be that Curraghs, Galley's and possibly even Caravels CANNOT pass through Ocean squares. this would make the Cutter more important and would also eliminate the "Suicide Galley" exploit because lets be honest, the Vikings and some Irish Monks aside, no one really went exploring uncharted waters until they had a better idea of how to do it.

IMO this would hurt colonization too heavily.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Curraghs historically were able to cross Oceans. St. Brendan may be just a myth, but there is some evidence for an Irish presence on Iceland before the Vikings, and they clearly reached the outer Hebrids.
Galleys/Dromon I agree, no Ocean for them. But, to maek colonization possible, that begs fro Longships.

The Cutter idea...the AI does not use any Naval unit that is neither Naval Dominance nor Transport (anyone ever seen an AI Curragh?). And fighting with Cutters?

However, I would like to see a Warship at the time of the Caravel. Galleas would fit, and it would be totally fine (and historically corret) if that one isn't ocean going.

However, if we start making a few changes, we will end with several needed fixes, and then, you could just play DyP .

(Canues,Curraghs, Outrriger, Galley, War Galley, Trading Ship, Trireme, Longboat, Galleas, Great Galleas, Carrack, Cog, Caravel.....)

 

[steviejay]

IMO this would hurt colonization too heavily.

but it would make it more realistic. The entire world wasn't colonised at the exact same moment tht Columbus discovered America, it took alot of time.

And also, the not being able to pass through Ocean squares would bring up another aspect which is kind of dismissed in the game but was very aparent throughout history, searching for viable routes to different places, for example the North West, and North East Passage

 

[steviejay]

Curraghs historically were able to cross Oceans. St.
However, if we start making a few changes, we will end with several needed fixes, and then, you could just play DyP .

that why one of the reasons I wasn't too keen on putting up on here my thoughts on the Naval problem. Civ 3 is almost at the end of its life, so any suggestions made might not really be added into the game.

 

[morchuflex]

anyone ever seen an AI Curragh?

I'm surprised, because I have seen several in my recent games. Maybe because I generally play on archipelago maps.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I played a lot of Archipelago maps, yet I never seen an AI Curragh. The only time I ever saw thm was in the Conquests, but they have a Transport capacity here.
But then, never say never again, and people also claim to have seen the AI building Scouts...

 

[player1 fanatic]

Curraghs are common on Sid games.
Probably because AI already has enough land untis, so it starts to build naval power.


P.S.
Also saw them few times on Emperor level.
(once or twice)

 

[Vietcong]

add a cog, or a midevil galley that upgrads to the frigeat, with 2a,1d,3 (or 4)m

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

That's really funny about the Curraghs. Ok, my Sid expriences are -nil- , but even on Deity Archipeloga maps I never saw any Curragh aside from my own. Galleys in no time, though.

But it's not that I don't believe you.