Well if we had leader cult as a civic then it wouldnt spread like a religion. Maybe if we set it up so that they got the negetive diplo for a different religion with everyone but had no state religion, the great people but no religious bonuses and hope that less trading from people not liking them will counter the great people?
Project For A Better Rhye's; Religion
- Thread starter kairob
- Start date
AnotherPacifist
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 4,878
That's is a good compromise. Remembering Moses vs. Pharaoh, Jesus vs. Caesar, your negative diplo makes sense, in fact I would even consider penalizing for additional religions present in the city. It is actually a strong argument to switch away from leader cult (which I suppose will replace paganism) as soon as you get religion. Maybe extra happiness with monarchy to combat the unhappiness?
It would be nice to be able to choose initially whether one wants leader cult or polytheism to start with.
We really need at least 6 religion categories:
leader cult
polytheism
OR
theocracy
pacifism
free religion
I think we need the first civic in each catagory to do nothing (I dunno why its just the way the games set up) Which means we could have;
Paganism
Organised Religion
Leader Cult
Theocracy
Free Religion
Leader cult would be pacifism with the military upkeep swapped for diplo penalties (except with people with free religion) and a penalty per religion.
Also I am keeping chart of the progress in the first post so ideas dont get lost in the debate.
Paganism
Organised Religion
Leader Cult
Theocracy
Free Religion
Leader cult would be pacifism with the military upkeep swapped for diplo penalties (except with people with free religion) and a penalty per religion.
Also I am keeping chart of the progress in the first post so ideas dont get lost in the debate.
AnotherPacifist
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 4,878
As it is done right now I wouldn't use leader cult at any time, since happiness is so paramount for stability. I would consider:
1. Adding 1 + happiness per city if you're either in monarchy or police state
2. Decreasing military upkeep by half OR giving exp points to new troops (boosting of morale by the charismatic leaders)
3. Additional stability if also in police state/nationhood or occupation; negative stability with representation/US or free speech
4. Making it available at Monarchy and no later
1. Adding 1 + happiness per city if you're either in monarchy or police state
2. Decreasing military upkeep by half OR giving exp points to new troops (boosting of morale by the charismatic leaders)
3. Additional stability if also in police state/nationhood or occupation; negative stability with representation/US or free speech
4. Making it available at Monarchy and no later
I can agree to all that, but with the less upkeep rather than the XP boost to differentiate it from theocracy. Also if we have it so they can deliberatly remove religions but they dont leave naturally in Leader cult that might help simulate them struggeling to control the native religions. (especialy if you lose a pop when you remove a religion).
What techs would be good for spawning the new religions?
Metal casting has already been suggested for the Greeks (early, greeks get it first and makes sense as greeks made statues of their gods out of metal)
Does Philosophy sound good for the Orthadox/Catholic split? That was used in a previous religion mod and came at the right time I think. Also should it be Catholicism first and then Orthadoxy or Orthadoxy and then Catholicism? I went on wiki and it just said they both think their the original one, which doesn't really help.
What techs would be good for spawning the new religions?
Metal casting has already been suggested for the Greeks (early, greeks get it first and makes sense as greeks made statues of their gods out of metal)
Does Philosophy sound good for the Orthadox/Catholic split? That was used in a previous religion mod and came at the right time I think. Also should it be Catholicism first and then Orthadoxy or Orthadoxy and then Catholicism? I went on wiki and it just said they both think their the original one, which doesn't really help.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
I think it's Catholicism, but I'm biased! If the Pope is taken as the symbolic leader of Christianity before the great schism, then Orthodoxy should probably be the new religion.
Protestantism founds pretty much on time with Printing Press, if a little bit early, and even if you have a problem with the timing it's easily the best technology for Protestantism in flavour terms.
Protestantism founds pretty much on time with Printing Press, if a little bit early, and even if you have a problem with the timing it's easily the best technology for Protestantism in flavour terms.
Yeah I think that Printing Press is the best for Protistantism.
Does Masonary sound good for the Egyptian Pantheon?
What Tech does Persia always get first for Zoroastrianism?
Shia and Sunni Islam is an interesting question as they should fragment rather quickly.
What is we set the whole Persian area to shism say 5 turns after any civ discovers Divine Right? Representing the Death of the original founder and arguments over succession. Shisms I don't mind being too scripted as they are a special case...
Also how do we fix (Sunni) Islam not spreading fast enough? Too high a spread rate would lead to some very wierd areas becoming Muslim (I often see portugal and Vikings Muslim) Whilst at the same time certain areas never or seldom become Muslim (Indonesia, Central Asia, Turkey) Although with the ability to remove none state religions this could become less of a problem as Islam in europe would slowly leave before free religion.
How about if in order to compensate the late arival of Islam, Islamic Missionaries were allowed to enter Independant Cities without Open Borders? If this is possible it might work well.
I also agree with a previous suggestion for all religions to be able to naturally spread to cities that already have a religion.
Does Masonary sound good for the Egyptian Pantheon?
What Tech does Persia always get first for Zoroastrianism?
Shia and Sunni Islam is an interesting question as they should fragment rather quickly.
What is we set the whole Persian area to shism say 5 turns after any civ discovers Divine Right? Representing the Death of the original founder and arguments over succession. Shisms I don't mind being too scripted as they are a special case...
Also how do we fix (Sunni) Islam not spreading fast enough? Too high a spread rate would lead to some very wierd areas becoming Muslim (I often see portugal and Vikings Muslim) Whilst at the same time certain areas never or seldom become Muslim (Indonesia, Central Asia, Turkey) Although with the ability to remove none state religions this could become less of a problem as Islam in europe would slowly leave before free religion.
How about if in order to compensate the late arival of Islam, Islamic Missionaries were allowed to enter Independant Cities without Open Borders? If this is possible it might work well.
I also agree with a previous suggestion for all religions to be able to naturally spread to cities that already have a religion.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
My solution to the "Islam Problem" has been to boost the spread rate, even before Rhye upped it himself. More broadly, it's linked to a failure of the Arabia AI to colonise historical areas like Indonesia and the Maghreb quickly.
I think in terms of "which religion gets which founding tech", we should follow Deng Xiaoping and "seek truth from facts". The Zoroastrianism mod probably handles Zoro's founding well.
And to be honest, I don't know how you can handle the Sunni/Shi'a split well.
I think in terms of "which religion gets which founding tech", we should follow Deng Xiaoping and "seek truth from facts". The Zoroastrianism mod probably handles Zoro's founding well.
And to be honest, I don't know how you can handle the Sunni/Shi'a split well.
The first Zoro mod used a scripted event to autofound but I think others used Monarchy. Also we can up Islam a bit more now as it will leave unhistoric areas (like the odd city in europe or the far east) as those civs will have other state religions.
Well I think that solves about everything but Northern European Paganism, Islamic Schisms, balancing Christian Schisms and whos going to make it.
I think that we should add a downside to the Apostolic Palace to counteract the extra
's. Otherwise the seems little point in changing Denomination when the Schisms break out across europe. Boosting the other Christian factions makes Free Religion too powerfull and gets messed up if Catholicism isnt the AP Religion. So I think a small penalty to the AP should help balance something to do with diplomacy sounds good to me as the Vatican wouldn't like inter-Catholic violance.
How about one of these two as ideas to limit it more;
If your Catholic (assuming the AP is Catholic of course, otherwise whatever the AP is) and you declare war on another Catholic civ then after 2 turns the is an emergancy vote between all AP members where each nation will vote for which of the following they want to happen
1)Allow the war
2)Force a Peace
3)Excommunicate the agressor (+3
in all cities for X turns)
4)Excommunicate both Factions
5)Excommunicate the Agressor and declare a Holy War to protect the defending nation
If this is too complex to code then how about just having a small chance for other Catholic nations to declare war on the agressor instead? (So one extra civ on average will defend them but it might be more or less)
Any other suggestions are welcome too.
Well I think that solves about everything but Northern European Paganism, Islamic Schisms, balancing Christian Schisms and whos going to make it.
I think that we should add a downside to the Apostolic Palace to counteract the extra
's. Otherwise the seems little point in changing Denomination when the Schisms break out across europe. Boosting the other Christian factions makes Free Religion too powerfull and gets messed up if Catholicism isnt the AP Religion. So I think a small penalty to the AP should help balance something to do with diplomacy sounds good to me as the Vatican wouldn't like inter-Catholic violance.How about one of these two as ideas to limit it more;
If your Catholic (assuming the AP is Catholic of course, otherwise whatever the AP is) and you declare war on another Catholic civ then after 2 turns the is an emergancy vote between all AP members where each nation will vote for which of the following they want to happen
1)Allow the war
2)Force a Peace
3)Excommunicate the agressor (+3
in all cities for X turns)4)Excommunicate both Factions
5)Excommunicate the Agressor and declare a Holy War to protect the defending nation
If this is too complex to code then how about just having a small chance for other Catholic nations to declare war on the agressor instead? (So one extra civ on average will defend them but it might be more or less)
Any other suggestions are welcome too.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
I believe the Protestantism bonus should be a large one-off payment for the confiscation of the monasteries, as it was known in Britain. Alternatively, create a hammer bonus for Protestant buildings, to repeat Max Weber's old meme.
- Northern European paganism is so minor that you don't really need to worry about it.
- The problem with Shi'a is, who is going to spread it? It started within the Arabian Empire, which will presumably remain Sunni.
Perhaps Shi'a could simply be an alternative flavour of Islam, with a shared holy city, and functionally identical buildings, but with different names. I don't know if that is possible.
- Northern European paganism is so minor that you don't really need to worry about it.
- The problem with Shi'a is, who is going to spread it? It started within the Arabian Empire, which will presumably remain Sunni.
Perhaps Shi'a could simply be an alternative flavour of Islam, with a shared holy city, and functionally identical buildings, but with different names. I don't know if that is possible.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
Divine Right pops up when Arabia is founded, right? So the chances of Islam having spread to Persia after five turns are really low. You would probably need to wait 15+ turns for that strategy to work, and that's a long time in game years.
Rod
King
Definitivly,
See Christianity didnt get popular, because it became state religion in the Roman Empire, but it became state religion, because it got popular !
You get the difference.
An AI that has the choice (or humans for that matter), will always keep the existing alternative rather then switching to something. Hence you must make the old religion die out artificially in order to force the AI to switch.
In the same way as the new Civs replace the old civs by some tweaks and hidden boni, so also the new religions must replace the old ones by tweaks and hidden boni ..
I think we have a bit of a missunderstanding.
I thought you meant that new religions should automatically remove pagan religions when it entered a city.
I agree with "tweaks and hidden boni". For example Pagan religions should have a very slow spread rate and a high natural decay rate (dissapear relativly fast in not state religion). Modern Religions should have a High spread rate (christianity has spread to every continent, egyptian polythiesm didn't even make it to france) and a low decay rate. More effective missionaries for later religions as well I wouldn't mind. But those kind of hidden bonuses and tweaks I dont mind. But each player/civ should always be presented with a choice and not hive his/her religion automatically dissapear in one turn and ancient religions should have a chance to hang on for a while in remote areas (Paganism in northern europe took a while to go) or even stay untill the end of the game (like Hinduism has done.)
By changing the strength of each religion indevidually we should be able to make the computer simulate history when left alone 09% of the time, whilst at the same time allowing some varience and the ability of the player to change history. (like performing a Muslim invasion of Europe, or a Christian Crusade into the Middle East or rejecting Christianity as the Roman Empire, etcetra)
Also what do people think of my idea for the Islamic Schism (not perfect I know). And should we have a Mesoamerican Religion?
I thought you meant that new religions should automatically remove pagan religions when it entered a city.
I agree with "tweaks and hidden boni". For example Pagan religions should have a very slow spread rate and a high natural decay rate (dissapear relativly fast in not state religion). Modern Religions should have a High spread rate (christianity has spread to every continent, egyptian polythiesm didn't even make it to france) and a low decay rate. More effective missionaries for later religions as well I wouldn't mind. But those kind of hidden bonuses and tweaks I dont mind. But each player/civ should always be presented with a choice and not hive his/her religion automatically dissapear in one turn and ancient religions should have a chance to hang on for a while in remote areas (Paganism in northern europe took a while to go) or even stay untill the end of the game (like Hinduism has done.)
By changing the strength of each religion indevidually we should be able to make the computer simulate history when left alone 09% of the time, whilst at the same time allowing some varience and the ability of the player to change history. (like performing a Muslim invasion of Europe, or a Christian Crusade into the Middle East or rejecting Christianity as the Roman Empire, etcetra)
Also what do people think of my idea for the Islamic Schism (not perfect I know). And should we have a Mesoamerican Religion?
Rod
King
Hello,
see you can play with Babylon even up to 1950 if you manage to survive. However it is not easy. So I am also fine if you wanna worship the Askardians till 2000.
My idea was to eliminate the smallest religions forcefully if too many religions are in the game. As long as only 7 religions are there you can have your Walhalla.
So in the same way as Persians or Arabs are designed to potentially take out Babylon I would design Christianity to potentially take out the Ancient Med. Polytheism, the Nordic Cults and the Mesoamerican Cults. BUT if you somehow managed that both Taoism and Shintoism get replaced by Confucianism, then there could be a slot free for the Nordic Cults.
So there must be lets say 5 final religions that can not be replaced, e.g.
Christianity
Islam
Jewism
Confucianism
Buddhism
in this case 2 slots would be left for Other Religions/Ancient Religions
Also there must be hidden boni, so lets say Hinduism would be succeeded by Buddhism but would still spread in all Indian Cities even when independent, hence it never gets small enough to be replaced.
Nevertheless then still some other religion could survive. Could be Taoism, or could be Zoroastrism or could be Nordic Cults.
Following Example :
It is 600 AD and Islam gets founded :
We already have Christianity, Jewism, Hinduism, Buddhism,Zoroastrism,Confucianism and Taoism.
Islam requires a new slot. Christianity, Buddhism, Confusionism, Jewism are final. Hinduism has more worhshippers than Zoroastrism. Z. has more than Taoism. So Taoism becomes history.
Lets say it is 1200 and the Aztecs spawn :
We already have Christianity, Islam, Jewism, Hinduism, Buddhism,Zoroastrism,Confucianism. Now the Mesoamerican Cults hit the floor. So they force an extinction.
Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Jewism, Confusionism are out of discussion. Hinduism is bigger than Zoroastrism so the Parsis bite the dust.
It is 1600 and the Protestants enter the floor.
They force an extinction of the Mesoamerican Cults etc ...
Of course you could also have 8 religions in the game, that would allow for more flexibility. However I believe 8 is REALLY the maximum.
see you can play with Babylon even up to 1950 if you manage to survive. However it is not easy. So I am also fine if you wanna worship the Askardians till 2000.
My idea was to eliminate the smallest religions forcefully if too many religions are in the game. As long as only 7 religions are there you can have your Walhalla.
So in the same way as Persians or Arabs are designed to potentially take out Babylon I would design Christianity to potentially take out the Ancient Med. Polytheism, the Nordic Cults and the Mesoamerican Cults. BUT if you somehow managed that both Taoism and Shintoism get replaced by Confucianism, then there could be a slot free for the Nordic Cults.
So there must be lets say 5 final religions that can not be replaced, e.g.
Christianity
Islam
Jewism
Confucianism
Buddhism
in this case 2 slots would be left for Other Religions/Ancient Religions
Also there must be hidden boni, so lets say Hinduism would be succeeded by Buddhism but would still spread in all Indian Cities even when independent, hence it never gets small enough to be replaced.
Nevertheless then still some other religion could survive. Could be Taoism, or could be Zoroastrism or could be Nordic Cults.
Following Example :
It is 600 AD and Islam gets founded :
We already have Christianity, Jewism, Hinduism, Buddhism,Zoroastrism,Confucianism and Taoism.
Islam requires a new slot. Christianity, Buddhism, Confusionism, Jewism are final. Hinduism has more worhshippers than Zoroastrism. Z. has more than Taoism. So Taoism becomes history.
Lets say it is 1200 and the Aztecs spawn :
We already have Christianity, Islam, Jewism, Hinduism, Buddhism,Zoroastrism,Confucianism. Now the Mesoamerican Cults hit the floor. So they force an extinction.
Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Jewism, Confusionism are out of discussion. Hinduism is bigger than Zoroastrism so the Parsis bite the dust.
It is 1600 and the Protestants enter the floor.
They force an extinction of the Mesoamerican Cults etc ...
Of course you could also have 8 religions in the game, that would allow for more flexibility. However I believe 8 is REALLY the maximum.
I don't think it should be limited that much, we can keep the number of religions down without coding it that strictly. Although your right Christianity should kick the Pagans out of Europe and the Americas but it should do so because of factors to inherent in the religion rather than because we told it to do so.
The Arabs take out Babylonia because they are in a similar region and have a lot of troops not becasue the Babylonian army randomly vanishes. Christianity should replace religions because they are both in the area and christianity spreads faster and leaves slower. Plus other civs will have christianity only 1 or at most 2 civs will have the same pagan religion so they will change for diplomacry reasons too. And I know this influences the AI from watching Christian Mali every game.
We should simulate the factors that cause the effect we want rather than just forcing the effect itself into the game.
The Arabs take out Babylonia because they are in a similar region and have a lot of troops not becasue the Babylonian army randomly vanishes. Christianity should replace religions because they are both in the area and christianity spreads faster and leaves slower. Plus other civs will have christianity only 1 or at most 2 civs will have the same pagan religion so they will change for diplomacry reasons too. And I know this influences the AI from watching Christian Mali every game.
We should simulate the factors that cause the effect we want rather than just forcing the effect itself into the game.
Ok guys so I think we have most issues cleared up. We could do with Vulanteers to help make it though. Panopticon you kind of hinted you could help is that still the case? My msn for Panopticon and anyone else who wants to help is kairob@hotmail.com for IM chat or if you prefere I check my email kairobinson (at) gmail.com and my pms pretty regularly.
I like this idea, but 3 quick questions/comments:
1) How fast will religions spread? Ex. For Islam which only spreads to Arabia and maybe 1 or 2 other civs, and this new division further weakens the standing of Islam in the world.
2) The diplomacy system for religions MUST change. I propose that religions be put under a dynamic system. Ex. The Catholic Church will hate protestants during the rennaissance/industrial age, but for the modern age, this penalty should be reduced or given a small boost in relations.
Also, some religions would prefer some over another. Religions should be grouped with Islam, Christianity, and Polythesism. I'm pretty sure that Catholics get better along with protestants than Islam. And I don't think Saladin would be pissed off enough to get a -12 furious just because Persia was Shiite.
3) How will UHV's be affected? Will Arabia's UHV count Sunni + Shiite or just Sunni? And how about the Khmer UHV (if you consider breaking up Buddhism into sects (Shinto-Buddhism and Mauryan Buddhism). I also am thinking of the Chinese UHV of building those cathedrals. There should be a period of no dying out to keep major religions that are critical for civs like Khmer that need a religion to have a chance to survive.
Also, I could do a little XML stuff (but not the best at it) but I think there are plenty of other people that could do it better than me.
1) How fast will religions spread? Ex. For Islam which only spreads to Arabia and maybe 1 or 2 other civs, and this new division further weakens the standing of Islam in the world.
2) The diplomacy system for religions MUST change. I propose that religions be put under a dynamic system. Ex. The Catholic Church will hate protestants during the rennaissance/industrial age, but for the modern age, this penalty should be reduced or given a small boost in relations.
Also, some religions would prefer some over another. Religions should be grouped with Islam, Christianity, and Polythesism. I'm pretty sure that Catholics get better along with protestants than Islam. And I don't think Saladin would be pissed off enough to get a -12 furious just because Persia was Shiite.
3) How will UHV's be affected? Will Arabia's UHV count Sunni + Shiite or just Sunni? And how about the Khmer UHV (if you consider breaking up Buddhism into sects (Shinto-Buddhism and Mauryan Buddhism). I also am thinking of the Chinese UHV of building those cathedrals. There should be a period of no dying out to keep major religions that are critical for civs like Khmer that need a religion to have a chance to survive.
Also, I could do a little XML stuff (but not the best at it) but I think there are plenty of other people that could do it better than me.
Balance like that should be tweeked after the core coding changes are in effect. But to answar your queries;
1) This mod should help Islams spread by breaking up christianity, allowing us to increase Islams spread rate now that it spreading to odd cities is less anoying and by allowing the removal of non state religions means other religions will leave areas the Arabs and Turks control.
2)This is an interesting idea, I'll think it over, if its popular it could be added but its low priority atm.
3)Som UHV's will be different, but not unbalancingly so. Khmer for example, will be harder due to more religions, but easier as non-state religions can leave cities of buddhist civs, leading to a higher % for them. Arabias UHV I think will just be Shiite, but we can fiddle for balance and maybe include Sunni too if Shiite is hard. Like I said this sort of balancing we can tweak once we have a working code.
1) This mod should help Islams spread by breaking up christianity, allowing us to increase Islams spread rate now that it spreading to odd cities is less anoying and by allowing the removal of non state religions means other religions will leave areas the Arabs and Turks control.
2)This is an interesting idea, I'll think it over, if its popular it could be added but its low priority atm.
3)Som UHV's will be different, but not unbalancingly so. Khmer for example, will be harder due to more religions, but easier as non-state religions can leave cities of buddhist civs, leading to a higher % for them. Arabias UHV I think will just be Shiite, but we can fiddle for balance and maybe include Sunni too if Shiite is hard. Like I said this sort of balancing we can tweak once we have a working code.
