Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall Modmods' started by kairob, Oct 22, 2008.
Good point in general, though.
Then again, there could be even more complex mechanics. For say, if Vikings never laid eyes on Saladin and his Muslim friends, the system could be tweaked for Ragnar to be more angry at Catholics/Orthodoxy/Protestant depending on what Ragnar's religion is.
As for Northern Ireland, I believe that is the case but this was more of a domestic thing rather than foreign affair. It may be a random event in the code though (not sure, just assuming)
The Maya, Aztec, and Inca do not yet have a religion catered to them. There should be some form of paganism that would spread throughtout all three. Their special religious building could be a sacrificial altar.
As for the European civs, the Reformation sounds like a fantastic idea. However, we have to be careful with inquisitors and religion-removing units so that protestantism isn't killed before it picks up steam.
Mesoamerican Cults will be in and don't worry the way the Reformation works Protistantism won't get wiped out.
You could view it as a Catholic community in a state with a Protestant state religion. That causes instability in Rhye's.
If you're going to use pagan religions you might want more poetic names for them. "Olympianism" rather than "Greek Pantheon". "Pharonism" instead of "Egyptian Pantheon". "Asgardianism" and so on.
Those words are pretty abominable. Why not go with something more pleasing to the eyes and ears?
So, Cult of Amun-Ra or Isis instead of Egyptian, Cult of Wotan for Norse, Cult of Apollo for Greek.
In fact, if I were going to make this mod, I'd play with the prevalence of syncretism in Europe and the Near East and have a single polytheistic religion that spawned Cults of X where X = any classical, norse, egyptian, what-have-you polytheistic deity. They'd all be part of the same overarching polytheistic group, with individualized city names. This is perfectly accurate -- Cults of Isis and Mithras, to name a few, could be found as far from their home turf as Roman Britan. Some historians speculate that there were Cults of Apollo as far afield as India!
There'd be a couple of benefits from this:
-You wouldn't end up with FoReligion as a late game supercivic due to a proliferation of pagan religions
-You'd not have to deal with excessive numbers of early game temples mucking up balance -- Just one Cult Center, in each town.
-Flavor. Most cities in your empire would have their own individual patron deity, giving them a badly needed distinguishing element. You also wouldn't have the game littered with a bunch of generic sounding religions, such as Egyptian Pantheon, or ugly words, like "Pharonism".
-Reduction in the amount of work needed for civilopedia, GP list, etc. More coding though!
I think Set, Loki and Dionysus would not be happy to be left out.
While the greeks had no specific name for their religion, or even for the world "belief" in the english definition, they had words that came close, such as "Nomos" and "Nomizein" (both analagous to the english "custom"). Those could easily be used as names for the greek mythology.
The case is the same with Egypt, albeit a little more complicated. Egyptian mythology was not common across egypt, but varied from region to region and different palettes of gods existed in different places of egypt. Some of these sub-religions were named, such as the Ennead (meaning "The Nine") and the Ogdoad.
Norse mythology is a bit harder, because most of the names for mythology are derogatory (all equating to "Heathenry" in english). Forn Siðr (Forn Sed) is possibly the only non-derogatory name given to the religion in medieval Iceland. The derogatory names include Hedendom, Heidentum, Heathenry and Pagan.
Mesoamerican religion was considerably harder to find information on, and I found absolutely no names for the religion. However, names for primary mesoamerican gods and heroes could be used, such as Inti, Quetzalcoatl, etc.
I would merge Greek and Egyptian Pantheon into a Mediterranean Polytheism religion, which would also include Roman and Mesopotamian/Phoenician Pantheons.
You should change the name of Theocracy -at least-, with something like Inquisition or whatever word would be suitable to the actual gameplay function of the civic, since this has no direct connection with Theocracy, which is actually a form of government.
What about Judaism? We started the monotheistic belief, we should have a place somewhere in this addition. Ex: Judaism won't spread as fast as other religions, but is very hard to remove.
Judaism shouldn't be in for quite a large amount of reasons.
It has too few followers. Jews are outnumbered by Sikhs, Neopagans and followers of Juche who believe Kim Il Sung is God.
To be realistic it would only ever be in one city as although the are Jews in other cities the are so few that in order to put Judaism into for example London, London would also have to have Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism and just about every religion in the game, which would mess up game balance as everyone would use free religion and nothing else.
None of the Civilizations that we have in the game have at any point used it as their state religion. This is kind of the main reason TBH.
Now this isn't an insult to Jews or the Jewish faith it is just that we only wanted large religions that were used as state religions by one of the civilizations in the game.
Judaism professes that the Hebrews are the elected people (ethinicity) by God. It is quite obvious why it wasn't/isn't widespread. However, if you look at ancient polytheistic religions such as the Egyptian one, you'll see that cities (ie: the ancient social communities) would worship in many cases only one Deity. To this regard, I don't see a lot of differences with the monotheistic faiths, the only differences I see with these are that these Deities didn't "claim" a supremacy over all other possible Deities and that therefore they had a more specific "role" in the Universe. But I consider these to be arguments for theologians, for the common people living in ancient Heliopolis would mainly worship Atum, the Patron Deity of the city, just like common people living in ancient Jerusalem would worship "God". Other inhabitants of Heliopolis may have worshipped different egyptian deities, or even foreign ones; so in the end the main difference is mostly in the tolerance of people and of their religion. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are intolerant religions, since each one of them proclaims that its God is the only true God. The philosophists/thelogians call them monotheistic religions, I personally call them intolerant religions, and I wouldn't boast about mine being the first intolerant religion recorded in human History and therefore being a must in RFC.
A bit strong perhaps, but I wouldn't have expected anything less from you onedreamer.
for Norse mythology: Odalism, altough this could be linked to extreem right and neo-nazi stuff and the church burnings by black metal extremists.
Dude, my belief may say there is only one god. Doesn't make it intolerant. Its just our belief, and to call us intolerant for that is just, shows your intolerance. Tell me one war of "intolerance" the Jews have had against any of the polytheistic religions back then. You can't because our religion tells us to accept anyone no matter who they are. That everyone is equal ans should have the same rights, even if they choose to believe in more than one god. If you want to point your finger at someone and call them intolerant, then you should be talking about the polytheistic religions back around the time of the founding of Judaism. Think about Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Macedonia, Rome, etc. What did they all do? Tried to conquer us and destroy us, just because we believed in what we decided to believe. And they failed, because, I'm still here today, everyone throughout history that has tried to kill us has failed. And to have people like you still here today that can't still grasp other people believing in other things is okay. Calling them intolerant, calling other religions above other just because of their beliefs, that is the definition of intolerance. Maybe we shouldn't be in the game we are small, but you can't deny that if we weren't here a lot of what is here today wouldn't be. I'm not putting my religion above others, I'm just saying how people in this day and age still can't accept the fact that other people can believe in what we wish, and go along proclaiming how intolerant we are just because what we believe in. Just giving you a perspective you will never had, being a a minority group that hasn't been accepted since we began, and to still see people calling us insignificant, it really hurts.
dude, avoid calling people "dude" on forums if you wanna have a civil discussion. Calling a person "dude" on a forum is like manifesting your "superiority" toward that person. So if you really care about appearing tolerant, please forget about this term, thank you.
actually, I said in my opinion the religion (not you) is intolerant. This is my belief. Does this make me intolerant ? Maybe... I do think I am not tolerant, but not because of this petty reason, rather because human beings are not tolerant by nature. If you were tolerant, you'd accept someone thinking your religion is not tolerant.
I don't understand the question: if you think that wars are fought for religious intolerance however you are quite mistaken; especially wars in the ancient and classical age.
Someone called your people insignificant ? I need a revision to my english vocabulary then.
PS: I would include Judaism in the religious modmod btw
Basically I don't want Judaism in the Modcomp as it is very small, is only a religious majority in 1 city and none of our civs ever had it as their state religion. Because of none-state religions slowly being removed Judaism would not last very long and even if it did last it would not have any real effect on game play.
This isn't attacking your religion and I am not calling your religion insignificant, I am sure that it is very significant to you and many other people and the development of other religions it's just that it is not suitable for the mod for reasons I posted above. Sikhism, Neo-paganism, Juche, Mormonism, Celtic polytheism, Shamanism, Rastafarianism, Jainism, African Paganism and many others are also not in the modcomp for very similar reasons.
Sorry onedreamer, didn't mean to interpret what you were saying a wrong way. But I still don't see why this religion shouldn't be in the mod. Judaism has had a big impact on history, without its very hard to imagine were the world would be right now if it had not happened. My suggestion for the mod is that it would probably stay in Jerusalem. But to reflect history anyone who captures the city from the Independents will have a high chance of revolt if their state religion isn't Judaism or if their not running the pacifism civic. This actually happened in history with the Romans, the Greeks, etc. But this will add to game play as this is were Christianity will be founded too. Giving more reasons to capture the city, like in the crusades and such. When the city goes into revolt a small amount of independent units will pop up and try to take the city back. This also reflects history with the Jewish revolts under the Roman empire, and 30 years of standoff between the Romans and the Jews in each one. And if the empire captures the city back it will cause the Jewish religion to spread to random cities, slowly(diaspora). This is just and idea to fit Judaism into the game.
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