(Proposal) A formal "vote" system using polls

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
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Dec 31, 2005
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I've been mulling over the ideas of "change management" for the last several months. With the next phase of the mod, especially as some modders go into periods of hibernation or even leave the mod, how do we ensure the tenants of Vox Populi are maintained while still allowing for change to continue. Further, how do we ensure that changes made, after time in the mod, are in fact changes that the community wants to keep?

We have used polls as a middle man for some of this, allowing polls to guide the decision process on what the community wishes to change and what they want to leave the same. However, I think polls are suffering from two primary issues:
  • Statistical Vagueness and Complexity: We have used the polls as a reflection of the "greater community", like a sample taken during an election. However, this requires statistical math which is not intuitive to all people, and is difficult in the face of the small sample body we have.

  • Minimal Participation: The participation of polls waxes and wanes. Sometimes people get very interested in them and we get a lot of responses, other times we get fewer. This can frustrate the change makers who make the polls but don't get enough responses to know what the community wants, in any direction.
So I've thought about this, and I have a concept I want to put before the community. This would shift polls from a "sample" of the community into a formal "vote" system, performed on a regular schedule. See the notes below. I am providing some details here, but really its a discussion around the structure of the concept. Its not important if the vote happenes on the 29th or 30th or 31st etc, its whether the structure of voting and review make good sense.

Change Management - Formal Poll Voting Process

Summary: When a change is desired, a poll is created at the beginning of the month. Primary Modders (such as G or Recursive) could veto the poll on various grounds. People have until the end of the month to commit their vote. The poll is then treated as a formal "majority wins" vote process.

Now in more detail:
  • A member of the community creates a poll with a formal proposal for change (perhaps in a new polling area of the forum). The poll would be very simple and straightforward, often a single choice yes or no question. Such polls would only be allowed in the beginning of the month, such as from the 1st to the 10th as an example. Past this time window, any new polls would wait until the beginning of the next month.

  • Primary Modders (such as G or Recursive) can review the poll and veto it on various formal grounds. For example, perhaps the poll is very vague, or needs some more discussion before it goes to a vote. Or perhaps the mechanic is impossible to code or completely out of scope for the mod. G would have the ability to empower other modders with this veto power as he sees fit.

  • The poll closes at the end of the month, with every member of the forum able to vote.

  • The poll acts as a majority wins vote. If the vote is yes, this serves as an element for the modders to adjust in the mod. If it's a no, no change occurs.

  • After a new version comes out, after X time (say 1 or 2 months), the elements that were changed are polled again. The idea is that once people actually try out the idea in the mod and get some time with it, they can vote to keep the element, or roll it back to the original.

Benefits of this Concept

Consistency
- Currently polls happen at any time, and for any duration. By putting them on a set schedule, forum goers can know when to check the forums for new changes to review and vote on. This ensures that more casual forum goers don't feel they have to check the forums constantly to know when "real decisions" are taking place, they could drop in on the 30th of a month and do all of their voting if they really wanted to.

Speed - For the more experimentally minded community members, this schedule helps to ensure there is a pace to change. Right now changes happen when a vague consensus occurs, but that consensus is vague, sometimes very quick, but other times ponderously slow. With this new schedule, people desiring changes know exactly how to get their proposals in place, and exactly when they will know if they are desired (or rejected) by the community.

Participation - By making polls a true vote and giving them the formal power to make change decisions, it greatly increases people's desire to use them. That combined with the set schedule gives people time to review polls and participate in discussions, but also gives them a true inclusion in the decision process.

Executive Oversight - Though the mod is "Vox Populi", at the end of the day its the modders having to make changes. And so the power of the poll veto ensures that while the community has a lot of power in the process, ultimately the big modders can veto if the community gets a bit crazy or is asking for the impossible. This also allows for the modders to make that clear to the community, that X is just not going to happen, and so the community can continue with other ideas or discussion, rather than wondering if their idea hasn't happened because its hard to do, or because it was unpopular.

Change Re-Review - One of the big weaknesses of the change process right now, is we very rarely review changes after they have been made. While we love to say "lets try it out and then roll it back if we don't like it", its rare for that rollback to occur, partly because there isn't a good feedback loop for that. With this concept, all changes effectively get a "2nd review" after they have been playtested a while. This can allow us to be more experimental, while ensuring that none of the crazy changes linger on due to momentum even if the community is not finding the change to be an improvement.



So that's the concept, still in a rough draft phase. I greatly desire thoughts on this concept as it could be a big change in how change works on the mod if people think its worthwhile.
 
Given our low numbers of voters, changing to a formal vote system allows multi-selection (approval) voting to flourish.
 
I really like this format! The only thing I am not sure about is if everyone should be able to start these polls. Maybe either only modders that know a change is possible to code (or not too complicated to realistically implement) should be able to start these polls, or at least the one starting the poll would need to consult a modder before starting the poll. Your veto system would kinda tackle this problem, but I just dont want a lot of wasted energy in started polls that just end up with "well no, that would take ages to code" etc.
 
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I really like this format! The only thing I am not sure about is if everyone should be able to start these polls. Maybe either only modders that know a change is possible to code (or not too complicated to realistically implement) should be able to start these polls, or at least the one starting the poll would need to consult a modder before starting the mod. Your veto system would kinda tackle this problem, but I just dont want a lot of wasted energy in started polls that just end up with "well no, that would take ages to code" etc.
Nah, for starters let everyone create the polls and then mods will see if it's really a problem.
 
I really like this format! The only thing I am not sure about is if everyone should be able to start these polls. Maybe either only modders that know a change is possible to code (or not too complicated to realistically implement) should be able to start these polls, or at least the one starting the poll would need to consult a modder before starting the mod. Your veto system would kinda tackle this problem, but I just dont want a lot of wasted energy in started polls that just end up with "well no, that would take ages to code" etc.

Thinking back to my days as a guild master in an MMO we had a subsection on our forum where any member could post but only the officers of the guild and the member who posted it could see and reply to it. If appropriate we could then transfer it to an open subsection for everyone to see and participate.
This does put more emphasis on the moderators to deal with each case but as each post is going to be reviewed and have executive oversight anyway i can't see it being any more work than is already planned but without the potential spam and confusion over the time requirements for posting polls.

This would also allow mods to engage with suggestions before they are made live and maybe offer up more realisitic options in the spirit of a suggestion in the case the initial suggestion is not feasable to code or ask for more information about potentially good ideas which are a bit vague.
 
  • The poll acts as a majority wins vote. If the vote is yes, this serves as an element for the modders to adjust in the mod. If it's a no, no change occurs.
  • After a new version comes out, after X time (say 1 or 2 months)

In principle I like this idea - provided proposed changes are realistically achievable or someone is willing to do the work.

Modding will happen at modders' own pace regardless of when a vote happens, though, so it should be noted there may be a time delay before community approved suggestions can be implemented.

I really like this format! The only thing I am not sure about is if everyone should be able to start these polls. Maybe either only modders that know a change is possible to code (or not too complicated to realistically implement) should be able to start these polls, or at least the one starting the poll would need to consult a modder before starting the mod. Your veto system would kinda tackle this problem, but I just dont want a lot of wasted energy in started polls that just end up with "well no, that would take ages to code" etc.

I have this concern as well. It's discouraging to the community as well - both the proposers and the voters.

Thinking back to my days as a guild master in an MMO we had a subsection on our forum where any member could post but only the officers of the guild and the member who posted it could see and reply to it. If appropriate we could then transfer it to an open subsection for everyone to see and participate.
This does put more emphasis on the moderators to deal with each case but as each post is going to be reviewed and have executive oversight anyway i can't see it being any more work than is already planned but without the potential spam and confusion over the time requirements for posting polls.

This would also allow mods to engage with suggestions before they are made live and maybe offer up more realisitic options in the spirit of a suggestion in the case the initial suggestion is not feasable to code or ask for more information about potentially good ideas which are a bit vague.

Any suggestions on how this could be implemented? I'm thinking of a potential rework to the forum structure.
 
Any suggestions on how this could be implemented? I'm thinking of a potential rework to the forum structure.

It was many, many moons ago and the moderation features may be different so how this may work exactly may be different.

On our site there were a variety of permissions available for each sub forum and also ranks of user...recruit, initiate, member, officer. We were then able set the permissions in each sub forum so the forum or the posts within it were only visible to the appropriate people.

Our recruitment sub forum for example was visible to everyone and everyone was allowed to post in the forum but the default for all topics was set to only being visible to officers and the original poster. We could then engage with the potential recruit to help decide if they could join with anything said being private. If they were accepted we set the topic as visible to all as a introduction (edited as necissary) so that members could welcome them to the guild etc.
We also provided an outline application form as a locked visible post which recruits could use as a template so people knew what sort of information we were looking for.

Outline translation to this forum i would;

Create a 'suggestion voting' forum (good name too be thought of)

Make the forum visible to all but the default for all posts as only being visible to mods and the original poster

Include a suggestion framework asking pertinent questions such as what you see as the current issue/what you would like added? what would you like to achieve? how do you envision it working? to help make suggestions 'readable' to start with

Audit suggestions as they are made and provide feedback/ask more questions as necissary

If the suggestion seems feasable and the mods are willing to implement it if it is accepted by the community then it is made visible as a poll to all users at the start of the next month, edited as necissary into a concise format so it can just be a yes or no poll and if possible do not allow replies as the suggestion should be in a format the mods are happy with already. There would be none of this grey 'i voted this way but on this proviso' (which i am guilty of myself).

If people wish to discuss a proposal they can use the discussion forum or if they have a specific refinement they can submit their own refined suggestion.
 
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It's an interesting idea.

I am very much in the support of the Change Re-review polls, as I feel like some issues get forgotten after they were pushed through with a poll.
Having it as a formal vote process will likely also increase participation and give it more legitimacy.

But for such a significant change I am also gonna have to offer some critiques (some more valid than others, partially playing devil's advocate). First, I'm not sure how much this would actually increase participation. I think it certainly will increase it, especially as polls are longer. But I wouldn't rely on it too much. Even for polls we left out for a long time, 95% of votes usually came in the first week. As for speed, I would also argue it doesn't always help with that. If the community suddenly rallies around an idea, some polls have happened very quickly (a little too fast sometimes imo). I can't think of too many polls that took a long time and when they happened it was mainly because people were discussing them for a long time. As for "Executive Oversight" - Is it G, Recursive and Ilteroi? That would be my choice. But really anyone is a modder, I mean you can go right now in the github and edit any file, from your phone even, and make a PR. Working on the github has a much more loose structure, you can just look at the issues page and fix whatever without even looking at CFC. Which is also why I suggest that all the successful poll requests get put as issues on github.
It seems the main reason you want that executive veto is so that features that are impossible to code aren't added. I think this is a good reason but I don't see it happening so often that a moderator has to step in - I can look at DLL code and tell you if it would be feasible or not, so could many other minor modders. G and co are probably more experienced in that regard, so it's a good idea to have that but the real issue I see is more like one of scope creep. It's fairly simple to add a new feature to the DLL or wherever, but it is much more difficult to tell the AI how to use it. Particularly, some of the most popular ideas are ones that add strategic depth and those are the hardest for the AI to use for that exact reason. We need to be much more conservative with what features we add. I think that just having >50% vote is too thin a margin. For example in pdan's votes he needed twice as many to be for it than against it, iirc.

Also, on the issues of making polls, I really don't think it should need approval by moderators. I mean, that's so much extra work for the mods and the amount of polls they will block is likely <5%. I mean remember, before a poll is made there will likely be discussion so many ideas will be filtered out anyway.

Also, I remember you suggested a poll system where we first had a poll that just gauged whether or not people thought a system should be changed, and if a lot of people voted yes then discussion for solutions would start. Do these polls still exist in this system? I'd say probably yes, but you can make them any time (they are not "votes", they are just polls checking public opinion).

I've written a good amount but I'm not actually sure if I've said anything so here's my main points:
  • >50% vote is too low, needs to be higher. Maybe 66% or even more.
  • Put the successful votes of github
  • Change Re-review polls are a very good idea!
 
Polls aren't bad, but I've found that people often vote before/without fully understanding what the change is about, or have some misunderstanding about how it currently works.
 
Polls aren't bad, but I've found that people often vote before/without fully understanding what the change is about, or have some misunderstanding about how it currently works.

That has always been the nature of democracy. Some will have ideas, and ideation, differing from your own.

. . . that's voting?
 
You can have different opinions, but if you get the facts wrong then it's no longer a fair poll.
 
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