Proposal: Realistic religions mod. COMMENTS NEEDED.

[Dom Pedro II]

I think the idea is that your culture starts with a religion of this sort.. and then goes on to found a religion that is independant of your civilization.

Though in gameplay terms 7 is already pretty strong too many more and then religion is fairly debased and you can just pick it up any ol' time instead of it being necessary to race to found at least 1.

Agreed, as I said, it could definitely become too unweildy to add more than seven religions.

 

[maxpublic]

The whole. Jews don't convert is a fairly modern thing. For a really indepth reading..

It's a matter of fact, not speculation, that most Jews throughout history did not work to convert non-Jews. Their own holy book frowns upon the activity. They aren't a proselytizing religion and that hasn't changed since the time of King David.

There has never been a large number of adherents to Judaism in the world with respect to other religions of ANY era. Calling Judaism a 'major' along the lines of Christianity or Buddhism boggles the mind, as does the ability of Judaism to spread in Civ 4. It would never have happened in real life - and it didn't.

But to wrap it up essentially.. Jewish conversion did exist.

Nobody's claiming otherwise. But Judaism isn't an evangelical religion. Today it's estimated that there are perhaps a little over 14 million Jews world-wide and that's an historical all-time high. More than 99% of them were born into the religion, and that's always been true.

I'm sure you can find examples of similiarity in Animistic and Shaministic proceedings.. but you'll be hard pressed to find a unifying principle between all of them. So while they have lots of numbers, they have no unifying principles among them.

There's nothing in the game manual which requires "unifying principles" in order to qualify a religion for inclusion. Even if that were true, there are plenty of historical examples of religions that have just that, but which for the accident of circumstance didn't manage to survive to the modern era. Change one Roman Emperor and you'd be worshipping Jupiter, while Christianity would be a tiny sect based somewhere in the Mediterranean - assuming it managed to survive at all.

Additionally.. Mysticism could be considered to encompass Animism and other primative religions.

OK, no need to be offensive. Just because you don't happen to practice the same set of beliefs that hundreds of millions of Africans, Chinese, and various other groups do doesn't make them "primitive". They aren't any more "primitive" than christianity is.

An interesting footnote is that the religions of the Aztec and Incan empires was also very powerful, but only within their empires. Same with Greek Mythology..

The same thing could be said of Judaism - really only relevent to it's own people.

The fact is, we play the game to create history, not re-enact it. There is absolutely no logic behind the belief that regardless of what we do in the game the same religions we have on Earth today would become dominant no matter how history played out. Any culture which manages to conquer large swaths of the world is going to impress its own religion upon the area it dominates, not suddenly convert to some minor religion (e.g., christianity or islam) that it's never heard of before. Hell, since we start the game long before either came into being it's a stretch to assume they'd ever develop in the first place.

Max

 

[Imagiro]

Well I'm not going to debate Max and let this thread drown in flames.

However, our disagreement serve to highlight Firaxis' wisdom in not differentiating the religions. There is a lot of difficulty in specifying what the facts of a religion are and what an individual religions importance is.

 

[maxpublic]

Well I'm not going to debate Max and let this thread drown in flames.

No one's flaming anyone here.

However, our disagreement serve to highlight Firaxis' wisdom in not differentiating the religions.

Rather, it serves to show that the religions were picked based on gamer familiarity with them, rather than on concrete common factors. Judaism isn't a major religion, doesn't proselytize, and would never spread evangelically like Christianity or Islam; Confucianism has never been a religion and only the clueless could confuse it with one; and some major current world religions were entirely ignored, most likely because your average Westerner is completely ignorant of them and wouldn't recognize them if they showed up in the game.

There's no reason we have to stick with the ignorance plank, though. Just because the education of the average gamer is sadly inadequate doesn't mean that the mod has to reflect that blazing ignorance of the rest of the world, or of history. Nor do we have to pander to monotheists who might have a hissy fit if a polytheistic religion other than Hinduism is given a chance to flourish - and possibly destroy the particular faith of those self-same monotheists.

In Civ WE are the god-Emperors. WE make history. And that means we can also change the course of religious development in the world, rather than being condemned to repeat the same tired steps along the path the world actually took. After all, if we can take the Aztecs or Romans and use them to conquer the globe, it stands to reason that we can bring our religion with us - a minor thing in comparison to taking a dead civilization in our world and turning it into a superpower in an alternate one.

Max

 

[ShroudedMist]

However, our disagreement serve to highlight Firaxis' wisdom in not differentiating the religions.

I agree completely.

Rather, it serves to show that the religions were picked based on gamer familiarity with them, rather than on concrete common factors.

This is exactly what Firaxis should have done. You want to appeal to your target market in a way that provides them with things they can recognize and relate to. I'm not jewish but I consider it a religion and the inclusion of it works for me. It isn't an issue of population percentages but of recognition. If they didn't include Judaism then you know people would be on these boards complaining.

The fact is, we play the game to create history, not re-enact it.

I agree with this statement completely. However, people aren't going to gravitate towards a game if the history they're trying to create doesn't have enough elements of familiarity. If Firaxis went and polled its target markets about what they consider to be the 7 main religions that would be nice to have ingame then I doubt the resulting list would be much changed.

 

[maxpublic]

This is exactly what Firaxis should have done.

And that's what it did. But I also pointed out that *mod makers* are not Firaxis, and aren't bound by the contraints of marketing to a specific demographic. It's Firaxis' gig to cater to the widest possible market, because that's how they make money; but no one here is going to make a dime off of any mod he or she makes so marketing is irrelevent.

The thread, I thought, was centered on how to make religions in the game more realistic. I fail to see how you can shoot for realism when you decide to pretend that Confucianism is a religion, that the Jews are suddenly going to throw 5,000 years of cultural heritage to the wind and start converting all and sundry by sword and fire, or that certain rather enormous religions in our modern world simply don't exist, or aren't worthy of consideration simply because your average American has never heard of them. Or worse, that if the Aztecs took the world they'd be magically converted to Hinduism or Christianity.

Perhaps the idea here is to make the religions included with the game more distinctive. That's certainly a valid goal, but it has zip to do with realism. If that's the case then retitling the thread might be a good idea.

Max

 

[ShroudedMist]

Yes, that's my point. It's what Firaxis did end up doing since it was obvious this type of craziness over religion was bound to happen. It makes total sense for the designers to stay far clear of it.

 

[WildWeazel]

IMO Christianity should have something to reflect willingness to endure persecution. Think about the early church in the Roman empire, or modern Christians in China. I'm not sure how to implement it in the game though. Maybe make it very hard to convert a Christian city?

I'll post more ideas later.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

IMO Christianity should have something to reflect willingness to endure persecution. Think about the early church in the Roman empire, or modern Christians in China. I'm not sure how to implement it in the game though. Maybe make it very hard to convert a Christian city?

I'll post more ideas later.

IMO, this is no different than Jews or Muslims.

What you're getting it, really, is the strength of conviction of a populace versus external forces against them. I don't know how you'd translate that into game mechanics - maybe make the holy city very, very difficult to convert. But I don't imagine it would change between religions.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if what is needed here is an open template that can be modified as the user likes. It will be difficult to get people to agree on characteristics, bonuses, hinderences, etc.

What may be best is a template where 4-5 possible bonuses exist with 3-4 hinderences. All values are set to 0 however, and the user can adjust these as they like.

Put in lines for techs unavailable to certain religions if they are state, or lines for certain things they did not get benefits from. But leave the actuals blank. If the user never fills them in, they there is virutally no change. But users can change them as they like.

 

[abbamouse]

Animism is akin to "shamanism," "monotheism," "polytheism," etc. in that it it is a group of may different belief systems that share only one trait. I'm open to including an animist religion, but which one?

As for this business about us making history, that's just a way of saying that Scientology has as great a claim to inclusion as Islam, that the Raelians are just as good a pick as Christianity, etc -- if real history means nothing, than any religion, even one I invent off the top of my head, has a claim to inclusion in the game. After all, we're MAKING history, not simply repeating it, right?

Of course history matters. It's what makes things interesting. Accordingly, religions (like techs and civics) should represent actual historical processes, and the choice of which ones to include in my realism mod will be which ones seem to have had the most historical influence.

 

[wooga]

I'm one of the many people supporting the additions of specific bonuses/penalties to the various religions. However, I think the basic premise of this mod is a problem: you think each religion should be non-offensive to adherents. Practically, this will prevent you from having any penalties! I'm a Christian, and I'm 'offended' by the idea that Christianity would get a science penalty. But that doesn't mean that we should avoid that penalty! Similarly, Islam and combat have always been linked (the Prophet even lead military raids), so we should give Islam some sort of military bonus, even if some people think this offends their notion that "Islam is a religion of peace".

Maybe we should have two separate religion mods. A "non-offensive" and "offensive" mod.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

I'm a Christian, and I'm 'offended' by the idea that Christianity would get a science penalty. But that doesn't mean that we should avoid that penalty! Similarly, Islam and combat have always been linked (the Prophet even lead military raids), so we should give Islam some sort of military bonus, even if some people think this offends their notion that "Islam is a religion of peace".

See, this is why I like the template approach - put the structure in place and let people modify bonuses as they like.

Anyway, I think all religions should get a science penalty *if* they are state religions, and only later in the game (or maybe mid-game). No science penalty for researching iron working or drama, but heavy penalties for science later on...maybe once the scientific method has been discovered...?

I do agree with you - you won't please everyone. But a Christian says that Islam is not a religion of peace, where a Muslim will say ther same of Christianity. It isn't offending people that's the problem - it's the basic perception of reality that will be vastly different.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted, of course.

 

[WildWeazel]

I agree about state religions getting a science penalty. It's not the religion itself that discourages research, it's the government that doesn't want its citizens to learn too much.

 

[wooga]

What may be best is a template where 4-5 possible bonuses exist with 3-4 hinderences. All values are set to 0 however, and the user can adjust these as they like.

I'm in full agreement with this! I think the template should also allow for adjusting how individual religions feel about other individual religions. Something more specific than "-1: We are dismayed at your heathen religion". Something along the lines of "-6: You are the great Satan".

(I also want to be able to toggle off individual religions)

 

[ritterpa]

Now including Animism is not really possible. All the religions (and confucism) have had massive sweeping effects on the history of the world. They are beyond ideas of individual tribes, they are accepted outside of the borders. They each have central tenents and ideas that are acknowledged no matter how far different each individual subsection is from each other.

I'm sure you can find examples of similiarity in Animistic and Shaministic proceedings.. but you'll be hard pressed to find a unifying principle between all of them.

Sure there is. The unifying principle of animism is a deep respect for the land and the living, and a belief that they are, in themselves, manifestations of supreme beings. Animism is far less "metaphysical" (if you will) than other faiths. Less focus is given to exactly how one and his world are situated amongst god(s) but instead on maintaining respectful and humble interactions with the environment, with environment encompassing the entire Animist ontological paradigm. There is man and there is nature, and there are the spirits, but the meaningful interactivity of the spirits exists virtually solely through their natural and physical manifestations. Faith is not only interactive through prayer or death or divine vision, it is interactive physically and regularly. That is the central tenet of animism.

 

[KingMississippi]

Instead of modding extra things to the "named" religions in the game, how about changing the religions to a more generic, general sounding name.
For example:

1) Sun Cult (ie Aztec, Inca, other sacrificial religions)
Bonuses to attacks on other units to symbolize the warlike nature of the religion.
Missionaries spread religion easily but kill off citizens in city through conversion.
Severe hurt to relations with "civilized" nations (nations with free religion or after emancipation, etc.) if state religion

2) Mythologic Polytheism (ie Egyptian style Polytheism with gods of nonhuman identities)
Bonuses to happiness from luxary resources
Quicker production of religious buildings due to usage of slavery

3) Humanist Polytheism (ie Greco-Roman Polytheism with gods with human qualities)
Bonuses to commerce due to humanist gods (people like money, so gods like money)
Temples increase science slightly

4) Caste based Religion (ie Hinduism and Buddhism where religion is based upon how well you do in this life determines how well you do in the next)
Better specialists than normal
City health and welfare buildings, improvements built quicker
Quicker Great Prophets

5) Early Monotheistic (ie Judaism )
Holy City (ie Rome, Mecca, Constantinople, Jerusalem) big culture city with bonuses for religious expansion (free missionaries, LOS even without Organized religion and in Free Religion)

6) Conservative Monotheism (missionary spreading of the faith through example)
Very slow natural expansion but very cheap missionaries, temples, etc. Decreases aggression and increases diplomacy level
Seen as benevolent

7) Fanatical Montheism (war based spred of religion through conquest and assimilalation)
Also has very slow natural expansion but has several UU such as Inquisitor which functions like Sun Cult missionary (converts but at cost of pops), Fanatic (Missionary fighter with good offensive but poor defensive skills)
Acts like Militaristic civs by giving extra promotion.

Also this will lead to people getting less ticked off by stereotypes at "their" religion.

 

[maxpublic]

As for this business about us making history, that's just a way of saying that Scientology has as great a claim to inclusion as Islam, that the Raelians are just as good a pick as Christianity, etc -- if real history means nothing, than any religion, even one I invent off the top of my head, has a claim to inclusion in the game. After all, we're MAKING history, not simply repeating it, right?

Of course history matters. It's what makes things interesting. Accordingly, religions (like techs and civics) should represent actual historical processes, and the choice of which ones to include in my realism mod will be which ones seem to have had the most historical influence.

You're missing the point. If the Romans had decided to pursue their investigation into gunpowder after the initial disastrous experiments then you'd be worshipping Jupiter, not Jesus. So yes, because WE make history the religion of OUR nation becomes the world's greatest faith - assuming we win the game. And in that case, Roman polytheism isn't just as good as christiany - it's better, since christianity would be a dead, buried, and forgotten radical Jewish sect that no one would know or give a damn about.

That's the point, right there. If we play the Aztecs and conquer the world, the Aztec religion wins - christianity, islam, et. al. lose and are relegated to the rubbish heap. If we play the Norse (mod coming, I'm sure) then Odin kicks the ass of Jesus and Mohammed. And so on.

Just because christianity/islam/hinduism happened to get lucky in this world doesn't mean they'd be equally fortunate in any other world. Especially not one where we take the Aztecs or Norse on a campaign of world conquest. The idea that one of these religions springs up out of thin air the moment you discover tech Y and magically infects your entire population, encouraging them to toss centuries of religious belief out the window, isn't even remotely realistic.

Max

 

[hkming]

sorry for my bad english, hope u guys understand what i mean.

i have a suggest that religions should affect more on diplomacy.
e.g. as i feel, islam and christian belief that there are only one god, and they think other religions are not real and not welcome.
so, i suggest that they will have a ,for example, -2 effect to civs with other religions.
while buddhism seems more open to other religions, so they will have 0 effect.

so that when a islam civ meet a christian civ, there would be a -4 (-2 + -2) effect on diplomacy, while islam civ vs buddhism will have only -2 (-2 + 0)effect.
but, i think islam and christian are more united amount their own religion,
so, when they meet another civ with the same religion, there will be a +4 effect.
this will make islam and christian civ more keen on converting other's religion while religions like buddhism will become more passive.
which i think it is more likely the real world.

 

[kaigun]

Disadvantage for Christians is easy ..
what was the most common comment on meeting Christians from the natives wether Japan China Americas..the SMELL !!!!!....until the 19 century the idea of cleanliness was rather a non starter in Christianity for a few hundred years the Orthodox and Catholic even preahed bathing to be sinfull.....

lets be realistic a nice large disease penalty for being Christian.