PtP2- 3CC: Sally's Cultural Vengeance

[sturick]

Good work Meiz!
Things seem to be coming along quite nicely!

I agree with Greyfox that we should wait until we grow to max size before plantationing the dyes for the commerce.
EDIT:I also agree that we really don't have anything to worry about when it comes to Rosy challenging us for a cultural victory.
He has just been wonder whoring his way to all those points. Once we start running slider we will cruise past him.

Good eye catching that Eng for Guilds trade!

Questions for my set to be played tomorrow.

1)Are we taking Nationalism with the Lib freebie?
2)Should we start teching PP after that?
3)If we get an artist what do we do with them?
4)If we get an engineer should we use him on a Taj rush?
5)If we get a prophet what do we do with him?
6)Anyone have problems with Damascus building a few trebs for razing the iron city?

My current answers to my own questions
1)Yes
2)Yes
3)Right now I think settle in Medina...but I'm not totally sure at the moment.
4)Yes, rush the Taj so Mecca can focus on military builds.
5)Building a shrine seems the best thing to do. Depends on where we want the culture and what religion would give us more money. Confusion (Medina) and Judiasm (Mecca) both seem fairly equal. Leaning towards Medina since it is behind in the culture score.
6)Yes...errr no I don't mind.

 

[Meiz]

1)Are we taking Nationalism with the Lib freebie?
2)Should we start teching PP after that?
3)If we get an artist what do we do with them?
4)If we get an engineer should we use him on a Taj rush?
5)If we get a prophet what do we do with him?
6)Anyone have problems with Damascus building a few trebs for razing the iron city?

1) Yeah, lot's of free breakers + hermitage.
2) Yep, I think the research should go PP -> Constitution -> Democracy. Longbows and CA's can hold our defenses well enough, so no rush for Rifling.
3) I'd also settle him in Medina. Mecca get's a lot of wonders and Damascus will get a huge amount of culture from cottages.
4)Agreed
5) I'd build confucian shrine in Medina for extra culture (and shrine income of course)
6) I don't see any rush for iron. We can build CA's and LB's for defense (and offence) and that's enough for now. I'd first focus on getting our three cathedrals up and running. Then build Heroic Epic in Mecca and churn out the units needed.

 

[White Dragon]

1)Are we taking Nationalism with the Lib freebie?
2)Should we start teching PP after that?
3)If we get an artist what do we do with them?
4)If we get an engineer should we use him on a Taj rush?
5)If we get a prophet what do we do with him?
6)Anyone have problems with Damascus building a few trebs for razing the iron city?

1) Yeah, lot's of free breakers + hermitage.
2) Yep, I think the research should go PP -> Constitution -> Democracy. Longbows and CA's can hold our defenses well enough, so no rush for Rifling.
3) I'd also settle him in Medina. Mecca get's a lot of wonders and Damascus will get a huge amount of culture from cottages.
4)Agreed
5) I'd build confucian shrine in Medina for extra culture (and shrine income of course)
6) I don't see any rush for iron. We can build CA's and LB's for defense (and offence) and that's enough for now. I'd first focus on getting our three cathedrals up and running. Then build Heroic Epic in Mecca and churn out the units needed.

1. I agree
2. Strongly disagree. If we research constitution and swap to representation, those two settled artists, two settled GG's, and two artists (opps scientists) running in Media will give us more of a research boost since we don't have many villages or towns. I think we can wait on Free Speech as well until after Demo. Then Demo so we can grow those cottages & hamlets into villages and towns. And finally PP and Free Speech will pay off.
3. I agree with settling.
4. Agree with rush.
5. Agree with shrine.
6. Agree & Agree. Would like Trebs to raze iron city but would like to get more religious buildings up as well.

 

[sturick]

I agree that we will get more immediate use out of Constitution than PP.
Plus our happy cap will only take slight hits in Mecca and Medina.
By my counts...PP will increase beaker production by 9 beakers.
Representation will increase it by 21 beakers.

The beauty of a SG at work right there...I would have went PP and while its not major it is +EV (sorry poker verbage there...eg the more optimal play)

I also agree with Meiz that we should play defensively with current troops.
Getting the iron doesn't really pay us any dividends in the immediate term.
Plus with Gunpowder on the horizon iron would only be useful for pikes.
Getting those temples, monasteries, and cathedrals up and running provides lots of immediate and long term benefits.

Good call also on working all the cottage tiles for growth in Damascus.

Additional question.

7)Should I join the war if Rosy asks for diplo reasons?

 

[White Dragon]

I agree that we will get more immediate use out of Constitution than PP.
Plus our happy cap will only take slight hits in Mecca and Medina.
By my counts...PP will increase beaker production by 9 beakers.
Representation will increase it by 21 beakers.

The beauty of a SG at work right there...I would have went PP and while its not major it is +EV (sorry poker verbage there...eg the more optimal play)

7)Should I join the war if Rosy asks for diplo reasons?

Sturick, I am a little confused. It sounds like you agree that Constitution will be better in the short run but that PP is more optimal. I went back and sorta recounted. We only have 11 "cottages" now. Unless we build 10 more in Medina & Mecca, which is unlikely plus they would have to instantly be villages/towns, is PP ever going to be optimal for research? Sometimes I have a hard time remembering this is a 3CC and that normal tech/build/unit patterns do not apply. Obviously when we turn slider to 100% culture it is a must have but that won't be until rifling. And the quicker we get there the quicker we can go to 100% culture. Also, as Medina grows and hires more artists, the skew moves towards constitution.

7. I would say it is entirely up to you.

 

[sturick]

No I was saying that my first instinct was to choose PP.
Your argument for choosing Constitution made sense and I changed my mind.

I obviously didn't clearly communicate that I thought your choice of Constitution as the next tech was better than what I had originally thought in PP.

Put another way, if this were a solo game I would have picked PP not realizing that Const was the better choice at the time. Sorry for the

This was just a poorly worded sentence:

I would have went PP and while its not major it is +EV (sorry poker verbage there...eg the more optimal play)

 

[White Dragon]

@ sturick: The smiley was supposed to be a joke since both you and Norvin_Green commented on them. And please don't be sorry. We are all adults here and these are just my thoughts. I was just a little confused about the line you quoted, and truthfully, I was hoping that there was some other kind of inherent bonus from PP I was missing that you were going to point out to me.

 

[Meiz]

I rarely (never ) do any direct math when playing civ, but just go with my hunch feelings. Now that it's a fact that Constitution get's more benefit, I also agree with your suggestion

I'd definitely join the war if Roosy makes the call. Boudica is currently burning her main stack, so she will not pose any threat for us. War against her is basically free diplo modifiers for us.

Speaking of diplomacy, if Boudica is vassalized, I'd feel much safer to be in friendly terms with both of our neighborhoods. I haven't looked at any charts, but I'd guess both of them can declare war at pleased...

 

[GreyFox]

Nice play.

We need to decide where to build cathedrals and hermitage. I would say leave Christian and Jewish cathedrals for the hammer-po0rest Medina. Damascus will get the hermitage and one more cathedral, while Mecca will get the remaining two. This will make Medina lag behind in culture -- ideal for bombing.

As to answers to the specific questions:

1) Yes, Nationalism ... if we get liberalism first (I doubt).
2) If democracy for Representation is better, than democracy is better.
3) Artist should be settled in Medina ... artists won't be better for bombing until we are around 100 turns left to legendary.
4) Yes, if we get Nationalism with Liberalism (it is not a given).
6) Yes, shrine will be best.
7) Definitely declare.

 

[sturick]

Preturn

All cities are working on the religious buildings which is good.
Going to play a defensive war with Boudy if we get called into one by Rosy.

(1) 1400 AD

Damascus jewish temple>aquaduct

The Americans must have had a stack I was not aware of.
They take the Celtic city of Chinook!
See you don't need our help!

(2) 1405 AD

Well someone out there on the other continent is larger than our friends.

Rosy earns a GG for his troubles.

(3) 1410 AD

Mecca taoist monastery>aquaduct
Medina jewish temple>aquaduct

I realize I am going "aquaduct crazy" here but all of our cities are at the health cap.
I just want them to get to max size sooner, thats all.

Rosy gets a great scientist.

(4) 1415 AD

Joao learns banking.

We could trade Edu to Joao for Compass, Banking, maps and 80 gold.
Then turn and trade Edu to Rosy for Gunpowder, maps and 400 gold.

Not a bad deal but I think I will hold off for now.

(5) 1420 AD

And in typical sturick fashion...I pull the 3% odds of getting a prophet.
Not a horrible result but whatcha gonna do.
Confusion shrine it is I guess.

The 8 gold from the shrine is enough to put us back into positive cash flow.
That is always nice.

I fire one of the artists in Medina to promote faster city growth.
Growing in 5 as well as getting the aquaduct in 5.

(6) 1425 AD

Mecca aquaduct>hindu mish
Convieniently the mish will finish just in time to start building the Taj.

We only need to spread Hindu to Medina and Damascus to complete all five relgions in each of our cities.

(7) 1430 AD

Boring turn...

Oh earlier I tweaked the spy points to get a few more on Rosy.
We can't see his demos any more so I wanted to try and fix that.

(8) 1435 AD

Now this was a much more exciting turn!

First we win the Lib race!

I choose Nationalism and have Mecca start the Taj.
26 ugly turns without marble.

The hindu mish successfully spreads the faith to Damascus.

(9) 1440 AD

Damascus aquaduct>hermitage

The jewish and christian cathedrals are ready for Medina to build.
I chose to start the Hermitage since Mecca would be busy with the Taj for quite a while.

Workers are getting bored now so I send them to chop jungles and mine hills and such outside BFCs.

(10) 1445 AD

Medina aquaduct>Christian cathedral

(11) 1450 AD

I have a spare worker start to chop the forests north of Mecca for a slight boost to the Taj.

(12) 1455 AD

More boredom...

(13) 1460 AD

Nothing yet again...

Might as well stop here so we can discuss how to get Rosy back to friendly.
I think he just dropped back this turn.

Joining the war seems the easiest way but we might also be able to achieve it with trades.

Roster
Meiz
sturick ---> just played
GreyFox ---> up next
Norvin Green
White Dragon

 

[GreyFox]

Good job getting Liberalism. So I was wrong (happily) abt the need for scientists.

I think we should simply join the war.

I think there are some trees to chop around Mecca that will hasten the Taj.

I think we can start trading Edu away, may be even Liberalism.

Question is are we ready to switch to Free Speech now, or after Taj to make full use of Bureaucracy.

-

 

[sturick]

I'm obviously glad we grabbed Lib but if we had missed getting it I would have looked the fool.

In hindsight, I wish I had taken the Education trades that I noticed halfway through my set.
Close to even trades and wouldn't have cost us the Lib race...oh well.

But now we have plenty of trading chips to work with.

I think we should wait until the Taj is finished before we switch to Free Speech...perhaps waiting even until the GA is over. The increased GA hammers and commerce might make it worth it to stay in Bureau for a little while longer...will have to wait and see.

Workers are poised to chop down two forests for the Taj right now.

I also think we should mine all available hills within our culture in order to possibly pop copper or iron...gold or silver wouldn't be that bad either.

Getting Optics will be nice too...sending out a caravel to find the other civs will provide us with new trading partners. We need to find more health resources for our empire!
We can also put a Christian mish on the boat to perhaps spread the faith to them...assuming Islam isn't rampant over there yet.

 

[White Dragon]

Nice set sturick.

I took a look at the save and have the following comment/question. I took the slider to 100% culture to look at each cities output. By my estimate Demascus is going to need the fewest multipliers. Once all those "cottages" get to towns, we get PP, switch out of bureaucracy, and implement Free Speech, it is going to quickly rise to the top. Should we only build the Hermitage there and build 3 cathedrals in Media? Or build two each in Mecca & Medina, plant all those dies in Mecca, then save the last one for a couple of turns after we go 100% culture to see how we are really sitting?

Also, I didn't realize we needed PP before Democracy. Double bonus there.

 

[Norvin_Green]

Speaking of diplomacy, if Boudica is vassalized, I'd feel much safer to be in friendly terms with both of our neighborhoods. I haven't looked at any charts, but I'd guess both of them can declare war at pleased...

I took a quick look at the charts and Joao won't declare at pleased which is good because we are going to lose some points with a switch from his favorite civic of HR. Rosey on the other hand will declare at pleased so we might want to keep an eye on that.

 

[Meiz]

I also think we should mine all available hills within our culture in order to possibly pop copper or iron...gold or silver wouldn't be that bad either.

I might have misunderstood what you meant, but you can only pop metals from mines that are being worked. Therefore, mining hills outside the city radius's is a vaste of time.

 

[sturick]

Wasn't aware that a mine had to be worked in order to pop a metal.

Well then in that case...uh...chop all jungles then!
Thanks for the info Meiz!

 

[Whosit]

Rosey on the other hand will declare at pleased so we might want to keep an eye on that.

Lurker: Rosey will also declare if you bomb his harbors.

OK, sorry for the lame joke.

I eagerly await to see if you can keep your neighbors from viewing your 3-city kingdom as a juicy target.

 

[GreyFox]

I got it, expect report 30 hrs later

 

[GreyFox]

Hmm ... we seems to have been a bit over-aggressive with the roading ... if there is no road in the red circled tile, there is a tiny chance of forest spread.

Anyway, one turn later, we told Boudy where to hang her head ...

unfortunately, since we have no metal, we didn't bring any poles. She will just have to bow her head down and use her hand instead.

I send a group of camels and elephants to pillage. Despite Rossy pumping on her, she seems to be going strong, and managed to killed one of our phants.

Anyway, end turn, I pulled back our forces. Not really worth it ... we better concentrate on our cultural buildings and religion spread.

We got the Taj:

and we meet two new civs: Pericles and his master Ragnar.

Pericles is pretty backwards, but Ragnar is quite advanced.

I suggest we trade with Joao:

I think he is halfway through researching Education himself, that's why the lop-sided trade. But I think it helps us to get to representation faster, so I suggest we agree.

Our cities, and those highlighted in yellow are my suggested builds for these cities:

Particularly, Mecca should probably get the Heroic Epic and Medina get the Moai Statues.

Good luck.

 

[Meiz]

Allright, Norvin Green is up! Comments regarding our situation:

- We should revolt to Free Speech immediately now that Taj Majhal is finished.

- I'd also let Mecca to work both of the free farms for growth, as it's still under happy cap. But it might be a good idea to do that after the GA, so we don't miss those extra hammers.

- Joao is willing to do the same trade for Education only, so we don't need to give Philosophy at all. We can also trade Philosophy to Roosevelt for Banking and little extra cash.

- I'd also suggest we open borders with Ragnar and his vassal for extra diplo points. Ragnar is willing to pay a good prize for our world map, but we might even want to gift it for fair trades diplo modifiers. That would hopefully give us the chance to trade techs with him as well, allthough it might be a better idea to not trade Education for him just yet.

- I do agree on your build suggestions. Let's try to get all those cathedrals up and running asap!

Edit: Damascus is looking quite nice, isn't it?