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Puppet cities need to be nerfed

Rohili

King
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
727
I foresee that the next big imbalance in Civ V would be that of puppet cities. As it is, puppets are already superior to building your own cities almost every time. The new patch makes it even less attractive to build many cities of your own, given the changes to happiness and SP costs.

At the same time, the patch fails to change the underlying mechanics of having science and gold being determined primarily by your population. That being the case, the only sensible strategy to keep social policy costs low while maintaining a scientific and economic lead, would be to have very few cities of your own and many puppets.

This would be a tragedy - there should not be one clearly superior way to play the game. Thus, puppet cities need to be nerfed, so that they are more balanced with cities of your own. Here, I point out two main methods to go about doing it:

1) Put a cap on how many puppet cities a player can have. For example, you might be limited to 2 puppets for every non-puppet city you own. Players will then be forced to build more of their own cities (or annex enemy cities). That way, you can't have your cake and eat it too - if you want a large empire, you must be prepared to forgo social policies.

2) Introduce more disadvantages to owning puppet cities. Some possibilities include:

A) Puppets generate more unhappiness

B) Puppets produce hammers/gold/science at a reduced rate

C) Puppets spawn rebels occasionally

D) Puppets have a chance of flipping back to their original owners

E) Puppets do not assign citizens to become specialists

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Personally, I favour the first option of putting a cap on puppets, even though it is less interesting than the second option. It is more straightforward and less likely to result in unforeseen consequences. You don't need to balance it that much - for the second option, you will need to make sure that any nerf to puppet cities must be balanced by the benefits of puppets, and the game developers are apt to screw it up. Finally, it puts a stop to the absurd situation where 90% of a civ's empire is made up of puppets (often seen with the AI).

Discuss.
 
I agree completely that puppets need to be nerfed, and my next essay-like post will be on something along those lines. Most of my fastest / easiest wins have involved an empire with nothing but my capitol + puppets.

My suggestion is to make them add to policy cost. I think that's the best solution, as it hits the problem right square on the head.
 
I don't think puppet cities need to be nerfed. I would honestly hate Civ V if they made it so there were almost no advantages to conquering other civilizations and taking their cities, and that's what a lot of people seem to want to make it. If you are successful in war early on, you should be rewarded for it. Plus nerfing puppet cities will just make more of an incentive to raze cities.
 
There is no problem. Why waste unhappiness on a city which you can't control rather than a city which you do? You'll never be able to stock science specialists in a puppet city (well, rarely the AI will do it for you). You can't control build order. And these cities tend to grow faster (= suck more unhappiness) than regular, production-focused cities.

They do provide good commerce and culture however, which are their benefits. I like to puppet capitals until they grow large, then prepare them to be major wonder/spaceship part production cities. I keep other puppet cities, but have no issue burning them down for a city of my own creation.
 
The biggest thing they have to remove is the ability of puppet cities to add to your cultural pool without increasing culture costs; totally counter-intuitive and easy to take advantage of.
 
My suggestion is to make them add to policy cost. I think that's the best solution, as it hits the problem right square on the head.
But that would essentially remove the whole differentiating feature of puppets, which is that they don't add to SP costs (and GP costs as well, but that is not as significant). And if so, what will be the point of puppets? The whole mechanic might as well be removed altogether.

I don't think puppet cities need to be nerfed. I would honestly hate Civ V if they made it so there were almost no advantages to conquering other civilizations and taking their cities, and that's what a lot of people seem to want to make it. If you are successful in war early on, you should be rewarded for it. Plus nerfing puppet cities will just make more of an incentive to raze cities.
There would still be advantages to conquering enemy cities - you will be weakening the enemy, which is a key goal in itself. Also, I'm not saying that puppets should be completely crippled; I'm just saying that they should be more balanced compared to annexing a city or building your own cities.

I think puppets are a key reason why Civ V is more boring compared to previous versions. With so few cities to control, your game consists mostly of clicking "Next Turn" during peacetime. It is a classic example of overkill in trying to reduce tedious micromanagement.
 
But that would essentially remove the whole differentiating feature of puppets, which is that they don't add to SP costs (and GP costs as well, but that is not as significant). And if so, what will be the point of puppets? The whole mechanic might as well be removed altogether.
Yeah, I would be in favour of this actually. It's my #1 suggestion, it's just people really dislike it. Your next statement is something I agree with 100%, and is my reasoning:

Rohili said:
I think puppets are a key reason why Civ V is more boring compared to previous versions. With so few cities to control, your game consists mostly of clicking "Next Turn" during peacetime. It is a classic example of overkill in trying to reduce tedious micromanagement.
I find it takes too much control away from the player. I'm only managing something like 1/3 of my cities. Isn't this against Sid Meier's development principle (which by a lot of people is taken as gospel for Civ games)? He talked about player control, and of players should always feel like they're in control of their empire and what they're doing.

Puppets seem to be about taking away control in trade for additional strength. If we had total control over them, they'd just be superior than our cities. So if they're doing at least somewhat what we want (and they are - they no longer produce certain buildings), they become superior than our cities.

I think the dev team underestimated how good not adding to policy costs is.
 
I don't like the current implementation of puppet cities, I think they should be something like city states with their own armies. I removed them from my mod using a LUA script that changes them to occupied cities every turn.
 
how about giving us control of the cities but they cannot build any culture buildings or units unless you annex them, so you lose the benefit of them giving you culture without adding to sp cost and you can optimise them for gold or science, maybe they can't spawn great people either.

another thing is that with so many less units two cities can make plenty of units to go and smash your neighbour then the puppets provide gold+science and the two cities that you made pump out units.

another option could be to give take away their border expansions when they are conquered, kill more of the population and they always have the -75% growth penalty, so they will grow a lot slower and not be the huge binus that they are.

whatever happens it needs to be a choice rather nhan the complete no brainer that it is now
 
I think they should have upkeep for buildings be doubled for puppets, or 1.5x as much. Also allow them to build useless buildings again. That would keep it in check, you'd only benefit for so long, and wouldn't want to have an empire that consists of a Capitol and 20 puppets.
 
Yeah, I would be in favour of this actually. It's my #1 suggestion, it's just people really dislike it.
Yeah, well, it is never going to happen. Too many people like puppet cities and the game developers are not going to completely remove a key feature in the game. That's why I am limiting my suggestions to practical ones that work within the parameters of the game and have a chance of being implemented.

Also, I don't think the concept of puppets is bad per se. It is just that it is too easy to maintain a large number of puppets - I myself usually have about 3-5 cities and 15-30 puppets, with the consequence that I usually have tens of thousands of gold and am at least one era ahead of the next best AI (on Emperor difficulty).

There needs to be a cap on the number of puppets you can maintain in relation to the number of "real" cities you have. I don't trust the game developers to put in a "soft" cap (like happiness limitations) without them screwing up the game drastically.
 
Personally, what I think puppets should have been was they are simply your city, but you can't build military buildings or units in them.

Ediot: Durr, forgot the no culture/science part.
 
I think puppets should work like all your other cities (including allowing you to chose what they produce) with 2 exceptions:

1. They don't produce the extra unhappiness that no courthouse annexed cities do (i.e. same benefit they currently have)
2. Their gold, culture and science contributions are reduced by 50%
 
I really like to play around with the Social Policies. They're new and fun. Problem is, if I have a bunch of cities, then it's really hard to get them. So what do I do? Puppet cities. Cool, except now I have much less to do in the game.

To me, somehow making Social Policies "easier" to play around without totally screwing up game balance would go a long way to limiting the desirability of puppet cities. The upcoming patch leads me to believe the devs are going in the opposite direction (need to choose policy upon earning one, num-city-based costs can never go down).

I would like the puppet city mechanic to be either a) provide resources (one or more of tile resources, units, science, culture) at increased cost (e.g. building, unit maintenance and/or just straight-up gold cost for the city due to greasing their political machines), or b) increased gold at the cost of resources, or even c) normal city but food/prod/science/culture is cut by 50%.

Those are just off the top of my head. Basically, I don't like it really being so much about getting social policies.
 
I think a good way to address puppets would be to reduce their science, culture, and gold contributions to your empire by 50%. Then give one of the patronage social policies a dual role in allowing puppet cities to contribute 75% or even 100% (just like they are now).

I'm thinking either Aesthetics (20 influence with city states) or Scholasticism (33% science from city states) could be paired with this ability. It would give those two policies a bit more oomph, as currently they are pretty weak. (Scholasticism I think is the weaker of the two).
 
If they nerf them that significantly, they should also reduce their unhappiness then.
 
I think there is nothing wrong with puppet city. Everyone keeps talking about 1 city capital and something like 10 puppet city... Obviously the problem is there.

It's way to easy to conquer the AI, in a multiplayer game this strategy would realy be dangerous (Like war should always be)... A huge gain or a huge loss (Or stalemate if you inflict as much as you suffer.). You shouldn't be able to say... Well I'll just get 10 puppet city and win the game since you first have to take them from someone else.
 
Well, puppets are still sort of a problem even with mods that do make conquering tough. There's two big problems:

A) They make conquering the way to a culture victory which is silly. Easy fix: Puppets produce no culture

B) Puppets are boring! Seriously, in a strategy game, I want to control stuff, not watch the game play for me.
 
/agreed

Puppet states are so ridiculous. Personally, I dislike them a lot more than ICS. I mean, I was motivated not to ISC simply because I like focusing on large, developed cities (personal preference); Choosing to annex a city instead of puppeting though, has no advantage whatsoever. It's really quite stupid.

(Okay, so I can rush-buy units, but seriously, the AI is so bad at combat anyway you shouldn't need to do that....)
 
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