Quantitative Resources

[Gaius Octavius]

City stockpiles can be both great fun and a great pain. I remember in Destiny, you had both a national (regional) and city stockpile. This made things interesting because if you founded a city far away (e.g. a colony on another continent) you couldn't just start building anything straightaway because the city began with no resources. It was reminiscent of real colonization in that the people were "on their own" until they started harvesting local resources.

The downside was that, apart from this, it was simply a pain. Cities that weren't directly connected to each other but had a third one in between would have to have their resources moved periodically, etc., which gave it a little more micromanagement than was needed. So I'm definitely in favor of a national system, even if a small part of the fun is lost, because it's much simpler to code and to use.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Then I will put words in the system I thought but not now as I'm going to take some rest.

 

[ggganz]

I'm not going to read 11 pages, but I read the first post.

NO, NO AND NO. The reason I stopped playing Sim City/Geniu$ was because of supply and demand of zones, power, water, etc./resources. (I also stopped playing Geniu$ because of the puzzles). I never want to deal with being forced to expand to get resources, then just having it be smart to expand more because the extra benefits would outweigh the maintenance, then having to get more resources, etc.

But, if you were going to do this, you would have to rework the map generator to make resources much more plentiful, but each specific resource should be spread out (i.e. there should not be 3 dye in a row, but there also should be at least 7 or so resources withing a 5 tile radius.

 

[Vrenir]

This thread is infinitely confusing. The goal has been discussed and established based off of several previous non-Civ games. Several variant ideas for achieving that goal, or an approximation of it, have been tossed back and forth. Supposedly work was begun, then delayed until BtS was available. The thread went silent, then a month later was resurrected. It was declared by the programmers of this project that the goal was too lofty and that perhaps it would be more feesible at the present to set sights a bit lower.

Then, as far as I can tell, the thread has gone back to discussing what would be ideal in the very features which were just declared impossible at the present! What in the world is going on? Did I miss something between three of the programmers (Gaius Octavius, dh_epic, and Zebra 9) all saying that this needed to be scaled back and the current discussion about how to implement what those three claimed should be put on the back burner?

It seems to me that this is obviously an ongoing project, and one that will be used by plenty of people (sorry ggganz). The more that can be figured out, the better the final result might be. However, I really would rather not watch this thread go in loops of discussion for the next six months; I doubt that anybody who reads or writes in this thread wants a vaporware economy mod. It is my belief that our programmers, whoever they may be, need to publicly declare what plan they do believe is feesible and that they are officially working on it. At that point, the rest of us need to quit trying to get them to alter their plans to include "one more thing." Let them get something done to make this game more alive economically, and when they're done, approach them and ask if they would be interested in adding onto it some more.

If they think that they can do a fully quantitative system right now, let them go for it. But if they still think that it's better to aim lower initially, we all need to let them aim there for the time being. Does that make sense?

Of course, if the programmer people do still want to discuss this, then I retract the entirety of my statement. My goal in this post is simply to try and get them some peace and quiet if they want it so that they can work more effectively. Thanks.

 

[dh_epic]

Some people wanted stockpiles for everything. Some people wanted just a few stockpiles, with others staying the way they are now. Others wanted a system where resources allow a certain amount of benefit per turn, but no stockpiles.

Dom Pedro was the main guy with all the gusto, ready to create not just a mod but an entire system by which everyone could have their way -- with the change of a few tags. It's hard work though, and he pretty much said he didn't have the time or the patience.

And so that's where we are.

 

[Zhahz]

I hope they never incorporate something like this officially - it seems like a lot of hassle for no particularly good reason. I kinda like how Civ maintains a certain level of detail and intricacy while also maintaining a certain level of abstraction that helps eliminate unnecessary tedium. This kind of thing might be interesting to some, and is interesting to ponder, but ultimately I don't think it does anything really good for the game.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

dh_epic summarized it pretty well.

For those worried that this would add unnecessary micromanagement to the game, I think Empire Earth solved that problem well. Instead of having a lot of different stockpiles to watch over simultaneously, you have a few that change by era. That's essentially what dh_epic proposed IIRC. Stone might be important in ancient times, but it goes "obsolete" by the modern world, meaning you don't have to manage the resource counter anymore. You'll never have more than 7-10 resources to watch over at a given time.

At any rate, I think Civ is heading in this direction. The programmers have taken the first steps with the new corporation system in that having more of a resource now gives you extra bonuses apart from the simple ability to trade. I guess if you don't like QR you've never played things like Lords of the Realm or Colonization. Nothing wrong with that; I just disagree. It adds a lot.


EDIT: Couldn't help but laugh at what ggganz said after I read this:

Ya know what? I suck at civ4 (I have been playing for over a year and can barely win on Warlord) so I am just going to stick to civ4 and wait for civ5 complete next time.

And...

WARNING: POSTER IS WORSE THAN KMADCANDY IN HIS PERMANOOBNESS.

 

[dh_epic]

I support a lot of different ideas. I'm glad you like one of mine, Gaius Octavius. Either way, I'm mostly just eager to see SOMETHING manageable come out of this. I think the easiest thing to do would be to create stockpiles of strategic resources, and leave the other resources alone. I might even encourage someone to remove food resources as actual resources, but leave them in as a higher tile yield.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

I Thought to mimic the espionage mechanics, just replacing adversary civilizations with stored resources. It needs addition of a building that will be named warehouse and provide about 10 storage points that can be directed towards crucial resources or distributed equally. If civilization is deprived from a particular resource, cities will not be able to use it anymore unless they have a warehouse, in which case they will use the stock until depletion.

 

[dh_epic]

That sounds to me like you just delay the effect of being cut off from a resource by about 10 turns. If someone pillages your iron, and you have a warehouse, you still have 10 turns of iron.

It's not a bad suggestion, but I think people who want a new resource system are trying to achieve something a little different.

 

[Ekmek]

I'm looking forward to this I really want to see a better reason to fight for resources instead of trying toget one oil and 'whew' its off to tanks...

this should add more to trade and vassals even in a limited form.

just thinking should there be a 'global market' simulation as part of it? something that makes the acceptable sale price fluctuate (using random numbers) and maybe even a fluctuation in how much is produced a turn?

I guess this could be down the road, I'm just look forward to some more economics.

 

[Zebra 9]

Ok, here is what I'm working on.

1. X resource is worth Y resource units
2. X thing requires Y resource units
3. X resource is stored in nearest city
4. X city can use a resource that Y city has no matter how far away it is just as long as they are connected by some sort of trade route
5. X resource can only be traded if the city that is storing X resource is connected to the players capital or is the players capital
6. Players trade resources the way they do now, so if X resource is worth Y resource units, and the player trades 1 source of X resource the receiving will now have Y resource units a turn.

Now until I get a compiler I need someone to compile/help me do this.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Sounds perfect.

 

[Zebra 9]

It is just missing one thing, a compiler.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Sometimes, I wish I can code but it is only a dream.

 

[I_batman]

It is just missing one thing, a compiler.

By saying you have no complier, I am assuming you have not run any code.
Are you even building code?

 

[Zebra 9]

Yes, I'm writing code, I'm not that good yet (I get different people on CFC to compile for me) but I'm learning. So anyone who helps me and doesn't know C++ will have to bear with me.

 

[I_batman]

Yes, I'm writing code, I'm not that good yet (I get different people on CFC to compile for me) but I'm learning. So anyone who helps me and doesn't know C++ will have to bear with me.

Sorry, but I am lost..you write code, email it to someone, then they compile it, then send you back the executable?

If so, that is madness.

Try this link. It is Microsoft's own site, and it is a free C++ Compiler.
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/express/aa975050.aspx

There is also a link somewhere on the Fanatics Civ IV site about setting up the complier.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

Well, perhaps you would be willing to compile for him, then, I_batman?

Jeckel might do it if you ask him, since he was working on something similar.

 

[I_batman]

Well, perhaps you would be willing to compile for him, then, I_batman?

Jeckel might do it if you ask him, since he was working on something similar.

Sorry, I think it is kind of crazy to have someone else compile code. I know when I coded, I would go through dozens of versions in a night. It is impossible doing this by emailing source code.

Besides, the idea of me giving the site address is so he can get a free compiler loaded on his own machine, which will speed up development about 100 fold.
Also, with most compliers, there is some error correction (syntax), which saves a ton of problems, and usually the ability to step through code line by line as the program runs. This is a massive help when it comes to debugging your own code. Once again, impossible to do when the source code is emailed to a second party.