I'm certainly no expert, but I can get a 9 tile city (no culture expansion) up to size 19, so I don't think tighter spacing is even relevant to the conversation unless you're contemplating ics (CxC).
Quartermaster
- Thread starter Elear
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I'm certainly no expert, but I can get a 9 tile city (no culture expansion) up to size 19, so I don't think tighter spacing is even relevant to the conversation unless you're contemplating ics (CxC).
ThinkTank
RL Addict
No expert either, but afaik, a happy citizen is better for scoring than a specialist.
Yes, but I was referring to the need for hospitals. And 10 specialists scores higher than 3 or 0 thus showing the usefullness of a hospital for scoring.
ThinkTank
RL Addict
Ok, I see. Then maybe this is a consideration too: the first happy citizen takes 2 tiles (city tile + worked tile), all other ones only 1. So the first one is expensive, you want to have less of these.
That's what I've been told. All things equal a size 36 city will score more then 3 size 12 cities if the could fit in the same space. The center tile is actually a loss unless it's on a hill.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
Assume you get to domination by turn 240 and get cities to max size by turn 340, so you have 200 turns at max.
Say you get 21 tiles per city - a dom limit of 4400 gives 210 cities.
If you double that to make a tight build, you will lose 210 happy citizens and gain 210 specialists, so you'll lose 210 *200 (turns left) /540 * multiplier, or, on SID, 622 points.
So, it's a pretty small optimization. It might be better to spam out 511 cities, let them grow as big as they can organically, then jam in 1000 workers to max them out and end up with a bunch of size 12 cities, because you can get to max size earlier... but I doubt it's a difference of more than 1000 points (on SID) in any case.
In fact, I suspect the optimal strategy is getting to the dom limit fastest.
Say you get 21 tiles per city - a dom limit of 4400 gives 210 cities.
If you double that to make a tight build, you will lose 210 happy citizens and gain 210 specialists, so you'll lose 210 *200 (turns left) /540 * multiplier, or, on SID, 622 points.
So, it's a pretty small optimization. It might be better to spam out 511 cities, let them grow as big as they can organically, then jam in 1000 workers to max them out and end up with a bunch of size 12 cities, because you can get to max size earlier... but I doubt it's a difference of more than 1000 points (on SID) in any case.
In fact, I suspect the optimal strategy is getting to the dom limit fastest.
This.
I don't think that, in pure land situations, it makes a lot of difference whether you cram in cities super-closely, or have them set up more like OCP.
Once you are at full domination limit and anywhere near maximum size, you will have citizens working every available tile. And, generally speaking, all those citizens will be happy.
If your city is on a plains tile, that center square would be putting out two food instead of three. So, that's half a citizen (eventually, half a specialist). If it's on a grassland, you're losing one full specialist. If you can manage to put the city on a hill, then you are picking up half a specialist.
Other than that, assuming you can keep everyone happy, it shouldn't make a bit of difference which city the citizens belong to, right? (Of course, that's an assumption that depends on a number of factors, but...)
EDIT: One reason to possibly have two separate cities would be if Longevity is in play?
It's not really an either/or question. You pack your cities fairly close in the early game, then as you can build hospitals, you disband some cities and add workers to others so you don't lose any population even temporarily.
Okay, I actually do have a question.
The game I'm doing is a Spaceship game and I'm at 10 AD in Republic and the early Middle Ages with about +300 GPT and 10,000 gold (due to GL/min scientist). In most respects, I'm in a position to dominate, but I actually have not triggered my Golden Age yet. Since I now can with Swiss Mercs, I am wondering whether I should move forward with an attempt soon to do so or hold off on my Golden Age until later in the era or even Industrial times. I suppose I am asking when is the "ideal" time to kick off a Golden Age?
My theory would be once railroads come along, for maximum benefit, but I can't be sure.
-Elear
The game I'm doing is a Spaceship game and I'm at 10 AD in Republic and the early Middle Ages with about +300 GPT and 10,000 gold (due to GL/min scientist). In most respects, I'm in a position to dominate, but I actually have not triggered my Golden Age yet. Since I now can with Swiss Mercs, I am wondering whether I should move forward with an attempt soon to do so or hold off on my Golden Age until later in the era or even Industrial times. I suppose I am asking when is the "ideal" time to kick off a Golden Age?
My theory would be once railroads come along, for maximum benefit, but I can't be sure.
-Elear
Sid level. Therefore, I can't even bother researching techs until late in the game, because it's going to be a waste of time when the AI does it for me.
Could you check my thread in the strategy forum about stealing techs? I think that's a more urgent concern.
Could you check my thread in the strategy forum about stealing techs? I think that's a more urgent concern.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
In my mind, the right time is now, for 2 reasons:
1) There is a lot of infrastructure to build in the MA, if you want it - libs and unis, banks, markets and harbors from cities you are still founding.
2) Swiss mercs are outstanding - once muskets come around, they are less useful.
Easiest way to invade an AI homeland and gets leaders is to find a civ that has no iron, land a stack of mercs and a settler on a hill and watch them implode. Settle, rush a barracks, walls and temple (to get culture and slow down the attacks some) and away you go. You might even be able to settle on a corner the AI hasn't yet, so they won't attack you right away. (they'll wait until you settle - they'll let you land in an open spot, but won't let you settle a city there if they can help it)
Great plan.
It's too bad that Gunpowder came along about 14 turns after Feudalism. (the tech pace became breakneck).I ended up rushing/building a lot of the infrastructure with a Golden Age in the early Industrial Age (not my choice even, but forced on me by a ridiculous two horseman invasion). I think the timing of the Golden Age was pretty good, as it coincided with a pointless world war that led the AIs into their doom (fascism).
The main key at the moment is to capture more land to ensure I will have all the resources for my spaceship, since I feel there's no doubt anymore that I will be the tech leader until the end of the game (I will get ToE and Hoover). Thus I'm targetting a lot of the colonizations on random islands because these will be pretty easy to take. The AI only has riflemen so it should be a breeze...
Not a lock for me quite yet, but close.
The game followed just about as I had predicted with few problems; I steadily advanced in technology, consistantly staying 2-3 techs ahead of everyone else.
One problem remains: China is at 106,000 culture with +1k per turn. So, with 3 techs left in the Industrial Age, and then Fission, I have about fifty turns to win. SS victory seems totally out of the question now, so it's all about how fast I can acquire the UN and hold the vote for a Diplomatic victory. I have a SGL on hand to rush the UN if I can get to that point.
The big question is if I can actually research three techs (Mass Production, Motorized Transportation, Flight) + Fission in fifty turns. It seems obvious that I should able to, but it's taking about 12 turns a piece for each Industrial tech (I can't get it any faster).
I figure I might be able to trick China or even another AI into researching one of the three, then trade them a tech for it. This would possibly buy me more time: Fission will likely take more like 18 turns to research due to increased Modern Age costs.
Time to research four techs: 18+12+12+12 = 54 (too late)
Time to research three techs 18+12+12 = 42 (just in time)
Alternatively, I could attempt some sort of military operation but I don't think that is extremely feasible; the amount I could slow them down would be negligable.
It's dissapointing to be so close to victory yet have such a roadblock. The biggest thing I'm trying to do now is help the AI because I cannot research my way to the UN alone within this timeframe. I'm more afraid of a cultural victory than having advanced AIs. My SGL ensures me that advancing the AIs purposely won't be harmful.
edit: Also, if I have to choose between researching Flight and Mass Production, which is preferrable? That is, what is the AI more likely to research -- anyone figured this out? I want the AI to be researching whatever I'm not...
One problem remains: China is at 106,000 culture with +1k per turn. So, with 3 techs left in the Industrial Age, and then Fission, I have about fifty turns to win. SS victory seems totally out of the question now, so it's all about how fast I can acquire the UN and hold the vote for a Diplomatic victory. I have a SGL on hand to rush the UN if I can get to that point.
The big question is if I can actually research three techs (Mass Production, Motorized Transportation, Flight) + Fission in fifty turns. It seems obvious that I should able to, but it's taking about 12 turns a piece for each Industrial tech (I can't get it any faster).
I figure I might be able to trick China or even another AI into researching one of the three, then trade them a tech for it. This would possibly buy me more time: Fission will likely take more like 18 turns to research due to increased Modern Age costs.
Time to research four techs: 18+12+12+12 = 54 (too late)
Time to research three techs 18+12+12 = 42 (just in time)
Alternatively, I could attempt some sort of military operation but I don't think that is extremely feasible; the amount I could slow them down would be negligable.
It's dissapointing to be so close to victory yet have such a roadblock. The biggest thing I'm trying to do now is help the AI because I cannot research my way to the UN alone within this timeframe. I'm more afraid of a cultural victory than having advanced AIs. My SGL ensures me that advancing the AIs purposely won't be harmful.
edit: Also, if I have to choose between researching Flight and Mass Production, which is preferrable? That is, what is the AI more likely to research -- anyone figured this out? I want the AI to be researching whatever I'm not...
China is in Fascism -- sadly not the greatest tech partner I could have!
It would be ideal to force them into war to mobilize ala SirPleb/Incas to cut their culture rate in half, but I fear that my tech rate will slow down drastically as I increase the luxury slider as I deal with protestors of the war.
edit: Also, the Aztecs have a lot of culture -- but how can you tell how much? My estimation is that they currently have 50k-60k (based on the culture graph) and thus they might have 80k by the time Incas have 160k.
double edit: Aztecs have about 74k but only growing at 180 culture per turn...and Chinese CPT seems to be expanding slowly even, projected win in 45 turns (Aztecs will reach 80k in 50 turns).
triple edit: I read it wrong! America is growing at that 200 culture per turn. Aztects are 74410 (+730). Thus, Aztecs will fend the Chinese off for quite some time to come: when Chinese hit 160k, Aztecs will be at 100k...
I wonder if I should go for Space Race or just take the Diplomatic victory undramatically.
It would be ideal to force them into war to mobilize ala SirPleb/Incas to cut their culture rate in half, but I fear that my tech rate will slow down drastically as I increase the luxury slider as I deal with protestors of the war.
edit: Also, the Aztecs have a lot of culture -- but how can you tell how much? My estimation is that they currently have 50k-60k (based on the culture graph) and thus they might have 80k by the time Incas have 160k.
double edit: Aztecs have about 74k but only growing at 180 culture per turn...and Chinese CPT seems to be expanding slowly even, projected win in 45 turns (Aztecs will reach 80k in 50 turns).
triple edit: I read it wrong! America is growing at that 200 culture per turn. Aztects are 74410 (+730). Thus, Aztecs will fend the Chinese off for quite some time to come: when Chinese hit 160k, Aztecs will be at 100k...
I wonder if I should go for Space Race or just take the Diplomatic victory undramatically.
MapStat shows it.
You might consider gifting some towns to Aztecs so they could build culture there (more cpt for them).
Sid AI's are pretty good in research even in Fascism. I assume it is a big civ so it should have pretty good income. You can check their income at diplo screen typing 99999 in gpt table so you could approximately judge how fast they could research.
Why so slow? Do you use science farms?
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