Question about Industrious Trait

[dhokarena56]

Hey all.

I adore Civ III, but haven't played it in months due to tech issues- I can beat Regent reliably on a tiny to large map, if I'm playing, say, Persia or the Iroquois. But I'm getting a new laptop in a couple days, so I was rereading the War Academy article on Persia, and it noted that the Industrious trait isn't as strong in C3C as it was in Vanilla. I haven't played Vanilla ever, and I haven't played PTW in, gosh, four years- it's only been C3C. So, what made it more powerful pre-Conquests?

 

[AnthonyIII]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think I've read that in vanilla, workers work 100% faster - in C3C they work 50% faster.

 

[PaperBeetle]

That is correct.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think I've read that in vanilla, workers work 100% faster - in C3C they work 50% faster.

This change helped balance the traits better. In vanilla, Industrious was THE strongest trait by a decent margin. I got addicted to it. In C3C it's a slightly above-average trait and Agricultural is now regarded by most as the strongest trait.

 

[dhokarena56]

I dunno.

I realised some time ago that ranking traits is not the level of analysis that needs to be taken. It's ranking pairs of traits. We regard Ag and Ind as good traits because they pair well with just about anything else. But, say, Expansionist, or even Militaristic, can make bad pairings- like Portugal.

 

[vmxa]

One of the things that makes III last so long is that it is not just as simple as this trait or those two traits. One of the worse traits imo is expansion, but play a scoring run for a low level game on a map like large or huge and it is very strong.

Military is so so, unless you are playing AW, then it is decent. I dislike AG as I play lots of war type games and will be press right from the start. Faster growth is not that useful to me as I can't spread out, till have troops to hold a new town anyway.

On and on, traits and UU's map and VC all come together. Independantly they are going to looked at differently. Well maybe Comm is always a great trait.

 

[dhokarena56]

I think you're right... Civ III has, for me, the makings of a perfect game. Civ II didn't have a decent AI, Civ IV and V were over-complex.

I'm not as fond of Comm as maybe I should. I vary rarely play France, so given a choice between cheap banks/marketplaces and marginally lower corruption and fast workers, I'll go for the fast workers.

Well, how much does Comm reduce corruption?

 

[vmxa]

Comm has three things going for it. The corruption, which is not important to me. The extra commerce. The big item is starting with Alpha. There is no way I can get the GLB on Sid, unless I start with alpha.

Alpha is need for the GLB on many of my AW games, where the GLB can be a huge plus. I don't care about banks as I seldom build any. Cheap markets are very nice. In conquest games, being able to speed up a market with the discount and use of CE's makes farms great.

Want fast workers, then Joan is your ticket. To me I prefer France over any civ for most games. You just can't beat how France can put off a GA. Does not need to use its UU. If are at a low level or a run away, make lots of wonders and still avoid a trigger.

I don't know what the impact of Comm is on corruption, but I will take any I can get for free. Otherwise I pretty much ignore corruption. Just another canidate for a farm.

 

[dhokarena56]

I dream of ever being able to beat Sid. Monarch's within grasp, but anything above that...damn.

 

[dhokarena56]

I read up, and found somewhere that Commercial's about equivalent to a free courthouse in every city. I don't know how true that is, though.

 

[vmxa]

That is as good as any explaination of the effect, maybe be a bit less though. All you need for Sid is the will to grind. Reminds me of the first time I tried to bike up to 4000ft. Just have to stick to it and grind away.

 

[dhokarena56]

I dunno. I'm a Regent player, so...beating Sid is going to be a gigantic time sink.

'Course, Civ III itself is a gigantic time sink...

 

[Ataxerxes]

vmxa brough up a point I've always liked about commercial. It makes the Republic slingshot easier. You just start researching Writing at 20% right at turn 1. And it makes good early trade bait. Seafaring also gets you started with Alpha.

I suppose if you like Monarchy you'd want to start with Ceremonia Burial and get to Monarch quicker. But CR isn't as valuable in trade.

 

[creamcheese]

Cheap markets are very nice. In conquest games, being able to speed up a market with the discount and use of CE's makes farms great.

Commercial doesn't get cheap markets or banks AFAIK.

 

[Rodrig0]

Commercial doesn't get cheap markets or banks AFAIK.

That's right, commercial and industrious don't make their respective buildings cheaper. Commercial has the two bonuses of lower corruption and extra gold in center of the city, industrious has faster workers and extra shields in center.

 

[vmxa]

Commercial doesn't get cheap markets or banks AFAIK.

That concept was not mine, just respnding to someone else. I never pay attention to what trait gives what discounts. Never can keep them straight. So I did not pick up on that, when it was stated, just said that would be nice.

 

[web25]

how do you guys deal with the cities with a bunch of waste? i founded a city with 3 starting shields and 2 were wasted, is it worth building a courthouse?

 

[Rodrig0]

how do you guys deal with the cities with a bunch of waste? i founded a city with 3 starting shields and 2 were wasted, is it worth building a courthouse?

How far is it from the capital? It is hard to know how much corruption will it have if it only has one citizen, because a city always produces at least one shield. So 1 good and two wasted could mean from 66% corruption (usable) to 95% corruption (hopeless) . Try growing the city larger, and see how much total corruption it has. it may have 66% corruption, but if you manage to have the city in WLTK, and then build a courthouse, it could be reduced to about 40% or less, which is useful.

 

[Aabraxan]

how do you guys deal with the cities with a bunch of waste? i founded a city with 3 starting shields and 2 were wasted, is it worth building a courthouse?

If you haven't located MapStat or CivAssistII, head to the downloads section and find one or both. They're tremendously helpful in making this kind of decision, as well as others: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=cat&id=68

 

[Skullsplitter]

How do you use MapStats to help make that decision? I had just kind of resigned myself to a ring of cities around the cap and around the FP, assuming everything else was junk until proven otherwise.