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Question about OCC strat

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Strategy & Tips' started by Frankincense, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. Frankincense

    Frankincense Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    7
    Hi everyone.

    I've been learning to get better at OCC (no size limit). Usually play with normal random map, deity, raging hordes, 7 civs. I'm still struggling to shave unnecessary turns off in early games and I have some questions.

    -What's the best color to play as?
    I assume that weak colors (white, blue, green) are bad as you're more likely to be your own key civ and won't get tech cost bonus?

    -Is it better to aim for Republic than Monarchy?
    What I've been doing is going for Monarchy and celebrate WLTKD to get the economy of a republic. I switch to high lux to get WLTKD first and then switch back to 0/7/3; the WLTKD will sustain itself with bonus lux from WLTKD.
    The reason I usually choose to go for Monarchy first is because Republic needs more tech to reach and most of the time I can't make a beeline to it because of tech hiding. Unless I'm very lucky with starting techs and huts I go for Monarchy first because it's much faster and I'll have less carrying cost toward Astronomy.
    But right now I'm not sure. Assuming that I have no starting techs, if I go Alp,Cer>Cod>Mon then my city has nothing to build but warriors, unless I get Bronze Working somewhere in between. But if I start building wonder that soon, the Colossus will finish before I get Trade.
    If I go Alp>Cod,Wri>Lit>Rep I can build library and diplomats which are useful. But I'll be stuck in Despotism for long and Trade feels very late with this route. I consider celebrating under Despotism but with the resource penalty it's just impossible w/o market.

    -How do you use your first 3 vans?
    Should I make trade routes with some nearby city ASAP, or is it better to spend some time sending it overseas to a demanding city for higher payoff but late trade routes?

    -Does constantly asking for gifts slow AI civs' progress?
    After I learned to stay pathetic and ask allies for gifts, I felt that AI civs research new techs much slower. Is it just me?

    -Should I prioritize Shakespeare or Newton?
    I usually goes for Shakespeare first because it allows me to raise science to 100%, and celebrating to 21. But I noticed that I don't always need size 21 to get 2 turn techs and I have to cut research and raise lux while celebrating. Right now I'm thinking that Newton first might be better, and I can just celebrate when tech carrying cost starts to slow me down, but I'm not sure.
    Also I'm having this weird idea of temporarily getting a colosseum. With about 100g (incremental buy for less than 200g cost and sell for 100g) I can get a quick boost to size 12 before Shakespeare (13 with sewer, but seems hardly worth it for just 1 citizen). Is it worth it?

    BTW what's the average time for normal OCC? I usually win between 1700-1800 AD and my best time is 1616 AD but I'm not sure how that compares.

    Thanks for you time.
     
  2. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Chieftain Supporter

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    Ontario
    It's a shame this place is so dead now. I think @WildPony has been going through the the old Games of the Month, and at least one was as an OCC https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm-119-spoiler.413121/page-4

    I've never been much of an OCC player, but maybe I can give you something new. Food caravan routes "use up" one of the 3 trade route slots, which can mean that you can use the "wonder bread" trick to free up commodities for new caravans (if a commodity is "blocked" but does not have an associated trade route or caravan, delivering a food caravan for a wonder will usually free up this commodity allowing you to make another caravan).

    You'll have to experiment with the details yourself, since I'm pretty sure this hasn't been realized before. I used this idea somewhat during a multiplayer game a little while ago, and it seemed to work when tried. I think the trade routes that are kept are with the three cities with the largest trade. I'm pretty sure the foreign bonus is not considered, but I haven't looked too closely.
     
  3. Frankincense

    Frankincense Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
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    Hi Prof. Garfield. Thanks for the reply.

    I think the idea is to send the first 3 vans to a nearby AI city and get the road connection bonus, so subsequent vans going overseas will yield high payoffs and still doesn't replace the first 3 routes, so I can use the unblock commodity trick forever, right?

    What I've been doing until now is using beakers from the first 3 payoffs to propel me toward Astronomy, so I tend to send it overseas where payoffs are great, but I've been thinking that maybe trading with a city using road connection may be better than overseas payoffs. If I find a nearby city then I can trade with it and devote my early shields to Copernicus instead of Marco Polo. Still, early Marco Polo is still useful because I won't have to worry about money for the rest of the game if I can ally with everyone early enough before they declare war on one another. What do you think?
     
  4. WildPony

    WildPony Chieftain

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    Location:
    Southern California, USA
  5. Frankincense

    Frankincense Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
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    Hi @WildPony . I learn things from your log. Looking forward to your Republic comparison game.

    Quick question. I see you built a lot of diplomats. How did you use them?
     
  6. Prof. Garfield

    Prof. Garfield Chieftain Supporter

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    I suspect that the effort involved in building the road to get the road connection bonus might be too much to make it worthwhile (especially since the bonus only applies for a specific route and if the enemy soldiers are not covering the path), especially given the limited settler time you have and the fact that the nearest city to you will probably be small. Also, I don't know if the game takes into account the road bonus when choosing what three trade routes apply (you probably want to try that in cheat mode to check). My suggestion was to send food caravans to the AI, thereby sacrificing some food each turn and the trade from a route or two and in exchange get the ability to keep producing caravans for delivery for large payouts. I don't know if that would be good or not, but it might be worth investigating.

    Three overseas payoffs and Marco Polo sounds like the better strategy to me (though, I should emphasize that I haven't played much OCC), but remember that early payouts are capped near 200g (until your tech cost exceeds 300, after which the cap is 2/3 the tech cost), so you won't have to go too far.
     
  7. WildPony

    WildPony Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Southern California, USA
    Hi Frankinsence , so happy to hear : ). That One City Republic comparison log somehow got lost or at least misplaced. I will try to find it and if i am unsuccessful, maybe i will just play it again : ).

    I use the diplomats predominately for exploration and as well to open unterrained huts and to be around the terrained ones when they open just in case a bribe is needed. Part of this is because in the Multi Gold version it's extra important to have enough military to prevent the foreign civs from despising you and refusing to trade techs, so it's very possible that i would play it differently in the classic version. I also prefer building diplomats instead of horses in the One City game to minimize the potential for the units away penalty, anticipating the commonly encountered possibility of having to bribe one or more supported units out there.

    To weigh in on some of your other questions all of this pertaining specifically to the One City game.

    Age old question and you have made some good points here. Deity level in One city does make the Republic route less appealing than on other settings since it is generally cost prohibitive to celebrate the Despotism to Monarchy numbers along the way. I still generally prefer going strait to Republic since for me once there it seems like it was worth the wait. As you say that path allows for the early library if desired as well as for the exceedingly useful diplomats. Another consideration is that i prefer to avoid Feudalism (As well and Invention and Navigation) until around the time i would be ready for Invention... and avoiding Monarchy allows me to have Warrior Code/Iron Working and Bridge Building and to continue opening huts without the risk of picking up Feudalism before its time.

    As to Colossus, i personally believe it is preferential in most cases to complete it early and before Marco's and to then complete Marco's with 4 caravans.

    There are various theories i am sure, each of which may have its own merits, but my personal opinion in a Medium Map game is that it is generally best to get Marco's and to trade for as many techs as possible before landing any trade caravans to greatly heighten the bonuses, hopefully even to the 300+ level. You likely know that the maximum possible bonus is 2/3 of your current beaker cost (edit: as i just noticed @Prof. Garfield had mentioned in the previous post). It varies from game to game, but somewhere around the 20th tech, beaker cost and the associated bonus potential goes from about 300 beakers / 200 max bonus to about 600 beakers / 400 max bonus. Of course if after Building Marco's and trading for all possible techs (and then opening several saved huts in the hopes that some will be techs) my bonuses are still only in the 200 range or so, i'll take what i can get and often times this triggers new availability.

    I personally generally prefer Shakespeare's and Sewer for size 21 even before Copernicus, although when trade caravan availability is meager, i would prefer to have Copernicus first since without a steady stream of trade caravans, this could actually get me to Sanitation and size 21 sooner. Then generally i prefer Econ and Stock Market before Theory of Gravity and Isaac's. After using high science to reach Republic and Trade, i generally like to get the Gold income, buildings and various wonders established before focusing again on high science, including as much as possible having enough gold to rush a unit, building or wonder every turn. But i have the multi gold game version (something i would like to change for more of an apples to apples comparison), so i understand that it seems to be significantly easier to get substantial Gold from the foreign civs in the Classic version and as such this would provide an earlier gold cushion which might lead me to prioritize Copernicus before Shakespeare's / Sewer in more situations.

    I think in most instances it is well worth it to invest in a Colosseum before the civ is ready for Shakespeare's and that this Colosseum will more than pay for itself by the time you sell it. Not only does it get us from 8 >12 (and a bit further) but it also allows us to minimize the Lux rate all the way until Shakes allows us to zero it. In my opinion it would be a fairly rare set of circumstances where skipping the Colosseum would be optimal. An analogy of sorts might be how pre-Republic warriors are worth their weight in gold in providing contentedness until they become obsolete.

    1700 -1800 seems quite strong and i am pretty sure that mid to late 1800s is more common for me. I would enjoy seeing some of your games and/or logs for comparison, possibly even playing and logging some of the same GOTM's if you would like : ). The following are links to several of my recent One City logs (among others not linked) and unless otherwise noted they will be the most recent post within each of the following threads:

    2nd to last post in this thread, 1843 landing: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm-83-spoiler.254077/page-3#post-15455751

    3 separate one city comparison's here in the final 3 posts of the thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm178-spoiler.567961/page-2#post-15413775

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm-92-spoiler.293751/#post-15474488

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm-92-spoiler.293751/#post-15472526

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm178-spoiler.567961/page-2#post-15468728

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm-94-spoiler.308703/#post-15466197

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm-94-spoiler.308703/#post-15462903

    Seems you already found this first one where i will seek to find the Republic comparison. Due to various sub-optimal circumstances, I consider this Monarchy result to be quite poor : ). https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gotm-119-spoiler.413121/page-4#post-15478101

    You too.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019 at 9:18 PM

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