OCC challenge

[Susanooo]

Hello,

I wanted to discuss with you about the OCC challenge on latest VP patch, deity difficulty, epic speed. Do you consider it to be possible to win a cultural or science victory (I guess domination is always possible, and diplomatic is not at all), and if so what civs do you consider to be the strongest. I'm hoping for some in depth analysis.

As a creator of this topic I'll go first.

I've tried several games, first with science civs like Babylon and Korea, and then with some early game cultural civs like India. My main problem is early game. Firstly I have to mention that you will not have any chance if you are in the middle of the map. Not because you will die, but because you will be constantly forward settled and in a perpetual war with almost all neighbours because they see you as weak. People will keep DoW-ing you, and you will have to keep razing their cities, which they will perma spam in basically the same places as the razed ones. One game was particularly unlucky where I got America next to me. Needless to say they kept buying my land. Lets get back to the point. When I said early game is a problem I meant getting the crucial wonders which require 4 policies. It's extremely hard to get 4 policies by the time you get to Terracota army for example or The great library if you do not have some mechanic (like India archers), and even then AI's usually get it before you do. Supply cap is extremely big issue, and Terracota helps massively, and also it gives some decent early game culture. One quick suggestion, maybe in next patch supply cap can be increased for the OCC option. As for my policies, I always take honor opener, because I play with raging barbarians on, either as 1st, 2nd, or 3rd policy depending on the situation. I mostly manage to survive quite long, but after some time it becomes too tedious to fight technologically superior enemies and I try again.

What are your experiences. Looking forward to hear them.
Best regards to the forum, and especially the mods for keeping the game alive.

 

[looorg]

OCC on that difficulty have been hard, or impossible, for a long time. The last successful one I had required an archipelago map and I was alone on my island.Sharing a landmass with someone should be doom as they will out-army you and your supply will be to limited. Also so much resources on deity early comes from killing barbs with authority, without it you will probably just fall behind more and more. That said I have not tried for probably about one year or so. Also a matter of just playing occ or having it toggled as an option, regarding just deleating things conquered or manually letting it all burn -- your interaction with city-states and capitals -- you might be able to do an ancient rush and knockout of a close rival.

 

[CppMaster]

It's ok that the hardest difficulty on a challenge mode is hard. Have you tried Immortal?

 

[msw1]

Venice is the typical one city challenge civ. Piazza San Marco gives 5 supply, and Arsenale Di Venezia gives another 5 if you go that route.

 

[stii]

I did in on normal speed, no clue if it is easier or harder on epic.

Culture seems impossible, you just can't generate enough with one city and you need to be faster than them.
Diplomatic was a long way off for me but might be possible if you really focus. AI conquering CS is a big issue however.
I won tech victory using spies to keep up at the end, with one in every capital you can constantly steal techs and rush build parts. You are only ever level with the AI but that is enough.

Military is easiest, you can push out and make people your vassals and snowball from there, as long as you can get oil with a string of citadels somewhere tanks will beat up the Ai even in pretty small numbers.

Netherlands is just the most powerful ability, generating a huge amount of culture very quickly, Venice is fine too but takes a lot longer to kick in as you have to build all the trade units and it also requires some degree of peace.

 

[Susanooo]

Thanks for the answers.

I would like to point out that purpose of this topic is not to whine about me not being able to do it, I just want to hear more opinions so we make this a legitimate doable challenge if it's currently too hard. I even accept the answer that this challenge is not meant to be played on Deity, and that being nigh on impossible is crucial part of it.

I'm mostly interested about the game speed part. I've seen Milae achieve culture victory with Egypt about 3 years ago (standard speed), but I'm guessing AI was quite different back then.

Also discussion about the best game settings is welcome (no starting bias, raging barbarians etc).

 

[looorg]

Thanks for the answers.

I would like to point out that purpose of this topic is not to whine about me not being able to do it, I just want to hear more opinions so we make this a legitimate doable challenge if it's currently too hard. I even accept the answer that this challenge is not meant to be played on Deity, and that being nigh on impossible is crucial part of it.

I'm mostly interested about the game speed part. I've seen Milae achieve culture victory with Egypt about 3 years ago (standard speed), but I'm guessing AI was quite different back then.

Also discussion about the best game settings is welcome (no starting bias, raging barbarians etc).

It was very different back then, if I recall correctly also Milae at the time basically conquered a lot with his war chariots. Not sure if he kept what he conquered as it was so long ago or he burned it down. But as I recall all he did was just to never build settlers, he did take things. But I could be remembering wrong. He might be lurking around here to answer that himself.

Is it still doable? Perhaps. Under some kind of ideal circumstances. But it's going to be very hit and miss I would say. It could collapse at any time if some large neighbor thinks that you are an easy meal and you will be. If you get one of the more war like once you are screwed. There is just no defending against the horde of units that will come.

I still think your best bet would be an island game, where you are lone. Problem is you have to build a coastal city so you can trade, but being coastal is a problem as it will eventually lead to wars that you have to be able to fend of, so preferably no more then one sea tile access.

 

[rkkn]

is epic speed easier or harder? (on deity)
I've actually never played on epic speed

 

[stii]

I'd be amazed if it made it truly impossible, I've played lots of deity games with probably harsher restrictions. I have no clue what effect epic speed has so I'm going to give it a try and see.

Egypt seems reasonable for early war with a good UU, similar with Assyria, as you can really abuse all the city conquest you will have to do.

 

[Susanooo]

is epic speed easier or harder? (on deity)
I've actually never played on epic speed

Seems to me that fighting is easier at slower game pace, since you have more turns. At the same time it seems to me that culture and science game is harder because of the AI bonuses. I'm sure of the first part, not 100% about the second one.

I'd be amazed if it made it truly impossible, I've played lots of deity games with probably harsher restrictions. I have no clue what effect epic speed has so I'm going to give it a try and see.

Egypt seems reasonable for early war with a good UU, similar with Assyria, as you can really abuse all the city conquest you will have to do.

Like I said domination and heavy warfare game is always possible. Put pacifist game (no conquest, no razing cities further than 5-6 tiles out of your city, only defensive wars, no vassals) seems like it's extremely hard maybe even impossible.

 

[Milae]

Yea I chose Egypt since the yield from kills are very useful, I didn't go Authority and wasn't doing offensive wars but they always come regardless so might as well benefit from it. I was on small Pangea map so was always going to have close neighbours also. Did have some issues with needing horses once I had to upgrade the chariots though. Patch was quite a lot easier then though so probs could have won with any civ, will be much more difficult now.

Some General thoughts: I think full tradition starter is the best even if you have a civ that gets bonus from kills. Sankore is absolutely huge if you can get it so should do everything for that including use GE. It's better than Terra Cotta imo if you aren't going domination and also with education you should be able to get oxford early which is nice.

Cermonial Burial gives insane amounts of faith with tradition so try and convert everyone if you can. Having people follow your religion is super useful for diplo victory so I think it's possible to make it happen with Austria.

Some other civ ideas: With 4UC you could try: Austria as mentioned for Diplo; Celts for science if the Oppidum upgrades GS as well since you can basically get extra bonus for your GS if you make academies with GS and Oppidum with the others. Pictish can help early with religion also; Then Brazil since the bandierantes yields are still amazing on OCC.

 

[Susanooo]

Hi Milae, nice of you to join the discussion.

I've been wanting to ask you about your opinion about game speed for playing on deity.

Hope you're doing well, looking forward for your new series on YT.

 

[stii]

So after playing a bit, the main issue is bonus yields are increased from speed and the AI has an awful lot of them. so you need a lot of your own, Like Milae said Sankore is very important. I think you do really want Terra Cotta too, otherwise your army is just tiny. It doesn't seem too hard to get both luckily, as most AIs don't take tradition and they rarely go for education first either.

Spy system does mean you can't fall that far behind in tech so you just need to work out how to win.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

a small issue with OCC recently is that border growth is now limited to 4 tiles radius when it used to be 5... it can be an issue for the monopoly.

Otherwise I think it is doable with very lucky defensible start. One interesting experiment is to edit the map to create an impregnable position, so war is never an issue. In that case pacific culture or science victory seems possible even on deity.

 

[azum4roll]

That was fixed in 4.6 no?

 

[rkkn]

I think you do really want Terra Cotta too, otherwise your army is just tiny. It doesn't seem too hard to get both

This has not been my experience at all. I enter classical through masonry, but terracotta gets grabbed by the AI every time, often before I can even start building it

 

[Susanooo]

I've managed to get Terracota army once in 20 attempts, and Great library also once in 10 attempts. I've been rushing them, and by the time i get the tech, I'm lacking 4th policy by about 20 turns or so. My main bottleneck is culture, and I'm pretty sure I do as much as possible when I'm playing a civ with no culture bonus. I also noticed that I get way more wonders if I play vs 6 AI's on small map than I get from playing vs 7AI's on standard. I know that's quite logical, but I get twice as much.

Pls add your game speed in comments, I'm interested how it affects science, culture and wonder grabbing on deity.

 

[rkkn]

yes, I was trying this on epic speed
I had never played OCC before this and also never played epic before this

though "terracotta is hard to get" holds true for normal standard deity games also

 

[stii]

Yeah I guess the difference is I'm playing Netherlands so I can build it right away without having to wait for culture. After playing a bit more I don't think you need it but it or great library do help a lot. Feel like you need at least one force limit wonder but there are three of them.

In general I'm finding it easier to get wonders on epic compared to normal but it might well be different with less culture focused civs. I'm playing 8 player pangea maps.

 

[rkkn]

yeah netherlands on pangea should be way easier to get wonders than almost any other civ, since you have giga massive early culture that no one else can get