Question about War Mongering...

[SinisterDeath]

Game Settings:
Bismarck - Germany
Emporer
Small - 6 Civs
Pangaea

Ok, so I'm playing a game. It's fairly early in, and the US decides to warrior rush me when I'm building the GL prior to the NC in Berlin. I purchase an archer and with the city bombardment and archer manage to hold off a bunch of warriors (6 or 7), coming in waves of 3 and a couple archers. About 10 turns into this war, Napolean (France) decides it wants a piece of me too, and declares war on me also.

I finish the GL and NC, a barracks, and start spamming Landsknechts (2 or 3 turns each). Because France is slightly closer to the USA - and because I'm a bit pissed off that they decided to jump in, I absolutely rampage my Landsknechts through their land taking city after city, massacring all who stand in my way.

3 of the 4 French cities fall and are puppeted. Just before I take their last city, Washington asks for peace and offers me marble and gold, along with ~400 gold and 12 gold per turn; I accept.

I take the last French city, and heal up, as I start my march towards America. I spam out some more units and get into position. Due to happiness concerns from the newly puppeted cities, I wait the full 30 turns of America's bribe, before declaring war on them. Due to some difficult terrain and choke points, it takes a while (30-40) turns to wipe them out. As I'm about to take their last city, with my units on the complete opposite side of the map, Catherine (Russia) decides that she likes how my multi-resourced, and fully improved town of Hamburg looks, and declares war on me.

I finish stomping on America, head my units over in time to prevent the capture of Hamburg and begin smashing the commie Russians, just like I did to France and America.

When I go to the diplomacy screen, Japan thinks I'm a "war-mongering menace to the world". The next turn the Aztecs ask me for another Declaration of Friendship (we've done them the whole game), and their status is "Afraid".

1. How am I a warmongering menace, if I've declared war once, and had war declared on me 3 times ? I did not attack a single city state at any point in the game until after smashing through France, America, and Russia, a long time after Japan called me a war monger. What's up with this ?

2. What is the afraid status ? It's the first time I've seen it.



TL;DR - I smashed 3 civs after having war declared on me 3 times, and only declaring it once - and not attacking any city states. Japan then called me a war monger - what's up with that ?

 

[TW_Honorius]

you declared war on someone after you made a peace deal, you betrayed america.

 

[SinisterDeath]

you declared war on someone after you made a peace deal, you betrayed america.

I didn't just wait the 10 turns for the peace deal to expire, I waited the full 30 turns to milk as much gold and happiness resources.

So if I waited for the entire 30 turn deal to expire, how am I betraying America ? There is no peace deal, or any current deal (research agreement, resource trade etc.) happening. That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Lord Chambers]

I believe I read that there are only two things which give you warmonger status among other civilizations 1)declaring war, 2)eliminating civilizations.

So don't take the last French city and you will have just 1 war monger diplo hit. And I recall that it takes 2+ for any diplomatic demerits.

What I'm not clear on is whether your diplomatic condition gets worse and worse as you become an even greater war monger. It shows up as a negative modifier after two, but is there a difference between two and eight?

 

[TW_Honorius]

I didn't just wait the 10 turns for the peace deal to expire, I waited the full 30 turns to milk as much gold and happiness resources.

So if I waited for the entire 30 turn deal to expire, how am I betraying America ? There is no peace deal, or any current deal (research agreement, resource trade etc.) happening. That doesn't make sense to me.

you made peace, waited 30 turns and then declared war on them, that is betraying. you cannot break a peace deal so the time after the 10 turns also counts in the betraying part of the game. you made peace with america and then broke it 30 turns later.

 

[SinisterDeath]

you made peace, waited 30 turns and then declared war on them, that is betraying. you cannot break a peace deal so the time after the 10 turns also counts in the betraying part of the game. you made peace with america and then broke it 30 turns later.

I guess I don't understand peace deals then.

For 10 turns you are blocked from declaring war again.

For 30 turns, you can either give or get compensation.

After 10 turns you get the message: "Your peace treaty has expired, either civilization can declare war on each other." After 30 turns, compensation is finished.

So how am I breaking a peace deal ? I don't understand that part.

 

[Aldor]

I believe I read that there are only two things which give you warmonger status among other civilizations 1)declaring war, 2)eliminating civilizations.

This was talked about in another recent thread. You can wage war and take cities as long as you want, so long as 1) you don't declare war on someone else, and 2) you don't eliminate a civilisation (that includes both major civs and city states). You only get the warmonger penalty if you violate one of the rules above.

I think the OP eliminated france and america, so thats where the penalty came from.

 

[OmegaKabob]

Eliminating civ's entirely is what's giving you the hit I think. I would say leave them with their weakest city and call it peace. I like closing them in a single space, preferably landlocked, and not allowing open borders >:-D. No way to expand that way

 

[Lose]

you made peace, waited 30 turns and then declared war on them, that is betraying. you cannot break a peace deal so the time after the 10 turns also counts in the betraying part of the game. you made peace with america and then broke it 30 turns later.

I guess peace treatys arent "time out" lame how we get hit for that even though they provoked us

 

[Brichals]

Did you denounce before you started the war? I am starting to think there is some kind of etiquette involved in starting a war.

Afraid is rare but means that your neighbours are scared of your army. They could still be friends with you, it"s just that you are much stronger than them. They are more likely to give in to your demands.

 

[snarzberry]

You get as much warmonger hate from eliminating a civ as you do for 2 DoW's. You eliminated France and declared on America and then eliminated America, this is the same as declaring war on 5 civs so it will generate a lot of WMH. DoF's are the only way to maintain any sort of trading relationship while tearing up civs like this, even if you didn't start most of the wars. Leaving one crappy city for your enemies to languish in is a good idea especially if they are the ones who started the war, then all of your war gains come at zero WMH.

 

[Becomedeath]

The fact they declared war on you doesn't mean you have to exterminate them!

Warmonger status (other than being highly coveted in my own view) is attached to your actions in war rather than the status of war itself.

For example, if an ally of yours asks you to join them in crushing an enemy, and you actually go out and crush said enemy and destroy their capital, you will be branded - by the ally - as a warmonger...weird, but usually true.

As domination victory (as pansy as it's CiV incarnation is) depends on capital conquests, filling that victory condition seems to carry a larger penalty than conquering a few border towns.

If you really want to keep a clean profile, the only way to go is to defend and only do what is necessary to protect your borders. Taking cities, especially capitals, has often strange diplomatic results.

Genocide for breaking an open border agreement is rather harsh!

 

[SinisterDeath]

This was talked about in another recent thread. You can wage war and take cities as long as you want, so long as 1) you don't declare war on someone else, and 2) you don't eliminate a civilisation (that includes both major civs and city states). You only get the warmonger penalty if you violate one of the rules above.

What if you capture their capital ?

I think the OP eliminated france and america, so thats where the penalty came from.

Based on the other replies in this thread, it sounds like you are right. I did smash them hard and fast. Like my signature says: "Pound, pillage and punish." Hit them with ranged, then pillage their treasury, and punish them for being stupid enough to declare war on me.

Eliminating civ's entirely is what's giving you the hit I think. I would say leave them with their weakest city and call it peace. I like closing them in a single space, preferably landlocked, and not allowing open borders >:-D. No way to expand that way

I will try that next game, thanks for the tip.

Did you denounce before you started the war? I am starting to think there is some kind of etiquette involved in starting a war.

Afraid is rare but means that your neighbours are scared of your army. They could still be friends with you, it"s just that you are much stronger than them. They are more likely to give in to your demands.

No, I was minding my own business. In fact, I had a research agreement with one of them, I forget who - which got cancelled due to America / France declaring war on me. Their status was friendly the last time I went into the diplomatic screen, and then suddenly, for no reason - other than the fact the AI cheats and knows your army strength, they declared war on me.

You get as much warmonger hate from eliminating a civ as you do for 2 DoW's. You eliminated France and declared on America and then eliminated America, this is the same as declaring war on 5 civs so it will generate a lot of WMH. DoF's are the only way to maintain any sort of trading relationship while tearing up civs like this, even if you didn't start most of the wars. Leaving one crappy city for your enemies to languish in is a good idea especially if they are the ones who started the war, then all of your war gains come at zero WMH.

Thanks for the information. What does WMH stand for ? Warmonger Hate ?

The fact they declared war on you doesn't mean you have to exterminate them!

Warmonger status (other than being highly coveted in my own view) is attached to your actions in war rather than the status of war itself.

For example, if an ally of yours asks you to join them in crushing an enemy, and you actually go out and crush said enemy and destroy their capital, you will be branded - by the ally - as a warmonger...weird, but usually true.

As domination victory (as pansy as it's CiV incarnation is) depends on capital conquests, filling that victory condition seems to carry a larger penalty than conquering a few border towns.

If you really want to keep a clean profile, the only way to go is to defend and only do what is necessary to protect your borders. Taking cities, especially capitals, has often strange diplomatic results.

Genocide for breaking an open border agreement is rather harsh!

Thanks for the information about the ally asking for help.

The genocide wasn't for breaking an open border agreement. It was for "cheating" (AI knows your army strength) and declaring war on me. This also led to the cancelling of a research agreement. France got it for joining in and trying to pile it on, and miserably failing at doing so. America got it for declaring war 40-50 turns into the game on me, and for "coveting" my lands.

 

[Optional]

Different civilizations also have a different modifier for warmonger hate, which is in some XML file. The Aztecs have a 1 on a scale of 1 - 10, so they don't mind much, although the actual number used in a game can end up 2 higher or lower (not lower in the case of warmonger hate for Aztecs, because 1 is the lowest).
Most civs will hate you for warmongering, though.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Game Settings:
Bismarck - Germany
Emporer
Small - 6 Civs
Pangaea

Ok, so I'm playing a game. It's fairly early in, and the US decides to warrior rush me when I'm building the GL prior to the NC in Berlin. I purchase an archer and with the city bombardment and archer manage to hold off a bunch of warriors (6 or 7), coming in waves of 3 and a couple archers. About 10 turns into this war, Napolean (France) decides it wants a piece of me too, and declares war on me also.

I finish the GL and NC, a barracks, and start spamming Landsknechts (2 or 3 turns each). Because France is slightly closer to the USA - and because I'm a bit pissed off that they decided to jump in, I absolutely rampage my Landsknechts through their land taking city after city, massacring all who stand in my way.

3 of the 4 French cities fall and are puppeted. Just before I take their last city, Washington asks for peace and offers me marble and gold, along with ~400 gold and 12 gold per turn; I accept.

I take the last French city, and heal up, as I start my march towards America. I spam out some more units and get into position. Due to happiness concerns from the newly puppeted cities, I wait the full 30 turns of America's bribe, before declaring war on them. Due to some difficult terrain and choke points, it takes a while (30-40) turns to wipe them out. As I'm about to take their last city, with my units on the complete opposite side of the map, Catherine (Russia) decides that she likes how my multi-resourced, and fully improved town of Hamburg looks, and declares war on me.

I finish stomping on America, head my units over in time to prevent the capture of Hamburg and begin smashing the commie Russians, just like I did to France and America.

When I go to the diplomacy screen, Japan thinks I'm a "war-mongering menace to the world". The next turn the Aztecs ask me for another Declaration of Friendship (we've done them the whole game), and their status is "Afraid".

1. How am I a warmongering menace, if I've declared war once, and had war declared on me 3 times ? I did not attack a single city state at any point in the game until after smashing through France, America, and Russia, a long time after Japan called me a war monger. What's up with this ?

2. What is the afraid status ? It's the first time I've seen it.



TL;DR - I smashed 3 civs after having war declared on me 3 times, and only declaring it once - and not attacking any city states. Japan then called me a war monger - what's up with that ?

Warmonger=/=declaring war
Warmonger=taking another player's cities, capital, and eliminating them.

You have shown yourself willing and able to take another player's cities, capital, and even eliminate them. That makes you Dangerous.

There are two ways to deal with a dangerous player
1. get Hostile (don't give them any advantages from trade and be ready to attack them)
2. be Afraid... try and appease the dangerous player until you are strong enough to be hostile

Imagine you see an AI eliminating 3 of its neighbors ... what do You do... you put that AI on the top of your target list.

 

[snarzberry]

Thanks for the information. What does WMH stand for ? Warmonger Hate ?

Yeah I was using WMH to mean warmonger hate. It's important to note that while taking an original capital does give you a special negative modifier with that particular civ it doesn't affect the other civs. To them the only thing that will make a difference is if you take another civs last remaining city, or if you are the one to DoW and begin a conflict.

 

[SinisterDeath]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. I appreciate all the helpful tips so far.

IMHO, they need to fix this game.

If a civ declares war on me, and another dog-piles and declares war, after cheating (they only ever declare when I have a very small army); I should get to smash their faces and take every city I want without any penalty.

I can understand warmonger hate if I'm the guy running around annihilating other Civs and City States, but if I'm defending myself against one, or in this case, multiple attackers, why should I be punished for destroying them ?

I'm sure some people might find a way to exploit / abuse this by intentionally keeping a small army, letting the AI make a DoW - and then spamming out units and taking over the world, but that's not my problem to try and fix. People will always find a way to exploit / abuse game mechanics if they really want to bad enough.

In the meantime, why should I have to take a penalty for bringing war to their lands, after they brought it to mine ? Let's face it, leaving them with one city, and not taking a diplomatic hit with the other civs is lame, one crappy city stuck in tundra isn't going to allow the AI to do anything, so why should I have to leave them with that, to avoid a penalty ?

 

[cccv]

It used to be that if I never eliminated a civ I wouldn't get warmonger hate, and I noticed that has changed since the last patch. I'm still leaving everyone a city, yet the people on the other continent who used to continue to love me now go hostile. I'm not sure what's up there, has anyone else noticed that?