question of priority - smith's or democracy?

[Sparta]

i hadn't played civ2 in some time in favor of civ3, but i'm a bit over midway through a vanilla civ2 game against a college friend right now (i think it's around 1600 or so). being used to civ3, i waited on democracy way too long, and i'm still a republic (difference seems less drastic in civ3). i had taken a decent lead around 250 or so, and believe i still hold it, with most of the wonders (including pyramids and mike's) and roughly the same number of cities (32 to 34 or something). i have a decent tech lead, just didn't prioritize democracy at all, and now i've found out that my opponent has been in democracy for some time, so i'd like to switch as soon as possible. also, the game will definitely finalize in the two of us warring it out (after we kill all the AI's, customarily).

now i have to decide what to prioritize, as i'd like to go to democracy with as little cost as possible. my main three priorities, outside of democracy, are as follows: two somehow just-recently discovered islands that sort of triangulate his start and mine and would give me a big increase in size on the main front of the final war, adam smith's trading company, and shakespeare's, which has been available a while and may be contested, but i've recently decided i should build to support a larger navy (have magellan's). i'm also warring with the mongols, but that's no big deal as my tech edge is wasting on them (destroyers v. phalanxes - gotta love it). lastly, i need to put RRs and farmland on my core, but i'd rather go for wonders and expansion in the next twenty turns and do those improvements at a slower, lower priority pace i think.

my question is, how do i prioritize those four different goals? my thinking right now is that i go for the islands near my opponent right away (as i'm amazed one of us hadn't found them until now, and they'd really aid either of us in the final war). i already have 2 engineers there, so two more shiploads should do it, and i can ransack my empire for half of them. then i could lower tech research for five or ten turns or so (while getting industrialization) and chip away at my savings as i rush adam smith's (with king richard's), and revolt as soon as i got it (another benefit of islands first: more engineers working during revolt). i've gotten something like 7 out of the last 8 wonders, so i think i can safely prioritize democracy and my empire and just roll the dice on shakespeare's (or is it important enough to rush as well?). i'd then work on shakespeare's and women's suffrage as soon as my revolt was over, possibly half using factories first.

sorry for the really verbose question, but i wanted to be descriptive, as i really need to win this game (preferrably ). if anyone could offer any advice or recommendations, i'd certainly appreciate them. thanks in advance!

 

[funxus]

If you have a lot of cash, you will without a doubt be able to achieve all of your goals.
As long as you don't have too many units out in the field, there's no point in waiting with demo, just check which is the next oedo year and revolt then.
To build your wonders, set a bunch of cities in the core to build caravans. If you get a good commodity that is demanded by one of your better cities (or your friend's or the AI's) build the commodity and deliver for extra cash and science, else build food caravans to help the wonders. Adam Smith's is good so try and get that one. Shake's might prove useful if you intend to wage war in democracy and is built in a high-production city. By rehoming all your war units in this one, your cities won't become unhappy, but look out so your friend doesn't realize this and captures it. Don't build your wonders with shields, build caravans, and when you have enough of them, switch to the wonder in the city and use all the caravans at once to build it. Caravans are a lot cheaper to buy than wonders.
For the expansion and improvement of your land, set a few cities to pump out engineers and transport a few to the new islands (don't forget protection) and set the rest to improve your land.
Do the same with your navy, pick a few models you like, depending on their missions, spend some money where possible to speed up the production.
If you want factories, you have to understand that they take a long time to build, or cost a lot of money, and that they pollute (diverts time from your engineers), so a good idea might be to try and get Hoover dam first (together with a factory the production in a city is doubled and it lowers pollution). If you have a really good production-city though, it might deserve a factory before hoover, but remember the pollution.
With a lot of cash, you can buy all the units you need or at least help the production by IPRBing. A good way to get cash is to deliver well-chosen caravans between well-chosen cities (e.g. the city with colossus).

Good luck.

 

[Sparta]

sweet; thank you very much for the detailed advice, funxus. i guess i didn't realize that anarchy could be so short-lived in civ2 compared to civ3 (i looked up the oedo lists you pointed out). i probably was placing unnecessary fear into the revolt; now that i know i can make it a one-turn anarchy i might as well right away like you said (in the next oedo yeah, as you mentioned).

man, that actually helps out a LOT - my real concerns were balancing settlers and caravans in advance of anarchy, because i was expecting a longer anarchy term and/or losing out on goals during it. without having to worry about rushing two wonders and bi-directional expansion hastily in advance of a much-needed revolt, i think you're right that i should be able to balance all of my goals and reasonably accomplish all of them. adam smith's will become high priority to help fund my rushing. btw, i'm assuming that the acronym "IPRB"ing means something along the lines of incremental buying, like buying a warrior first then switching to a phalanx and buying the last half; i couldn't find it but i think that's what you meant.

anyway, that's really a huge relief. my civ3 tendencies had me nearly equating republic and democracy, and expecting a later democracy after a longer anarchy, and that's why i was mistakenly fearing the revolt for some time now. i'll switch nearly instantly now and take advantage of my reserve cash, increased trade, and newly-reduced budget (smith's) to rush my next few wonders and expansion; the land grab phase of our game is nearly over. and btw, thanks for the advice on hoover dam - i really love that wonder and it does seem a good idea to rush to it soon and reap its benefits instantly when building factories. it has to be built in a town next to a river, right?

anyway, thanks again for all your help; i really appreciate it. i'll definitely be taking it into consideration later tonight when playing. also, thanks for the caravans suggestions - i have begun to realize the power of caravans in terms of trade routes, but prioritizing them for their instant cash delivery as well was a point i had missed out on till now.

thanks again for all your help - it is much appreciated. have a great day!

 

[Terrapin]

Do you have Women's Sufferage yet? That is a goody for waging war as a democracy, erases two unhappy citizens caused by "in the field" units. JS Bach's has a similar effect: effects any unhappy citizen, but unlike Mike's, temple or col, is counted after unhappiness caused by units.

By combining WS and Bach's, it is possible for a size four city support units in the field w/o unhappiness also. A size four city set of no food surplus (no growth) can support 10+ units in the field, and still have a shield or two left to start replacements.

 

[funxus]

I'm glad I can help.

The hoover can be built in any city, unlike civ3 where you can't build all wonders anywhere, and it counts in all cities with a factory, even if they it doesn't qualify for the improvement Hydroplant.

I forgot about WS, if you have it, each unit in the field only makes one unhappy face in demo, and no in republic. So, as Terrapin said, it can be good if you've managed to get Bach. With or without Bach, it's probably more important than Shake's, although twice as expensive.

 

[Old n Slow]

You asked about priorities -- my answer would be none of your original choices. Funxus mentioned trade, but maybe you'll need to be aware of HOW much trade can make a difference.

After industrialization, make trucks (truck deliveries are twice what camels are) -- sending a truck (with a demanded commodity, say Silk) over seas to a foreign civ from your big Super Science City, say maybe 30 spaces away could net you 800-1000 coins AND beakers. Two such trucks nets the next tech (but only one tech per turn from Trade.) And I think that getting a tech per turn at this stage is easily accomplished.

Adam Smith is a nice enough wonder, and it might save 200 coins per turn (fifty cities, four buildings each) -- on the other hand if the eight trucks were as above, they might be generating four techs and 8K to 10K in coins -- and rushing a truck costs about 150 each...so in ten-twenty turns you could have BB to your opponents DD and Tanks & Howies to his Alpines & Cav.

 

[ElephantU]

The primary negative difference between Democracy and Republic is the extra unhappiness from military units away from home. Womens Suffrage ameliorates that somewhat, and JSBach helps even more.

The primary benefit of Democracy is the extra flexibility in the Tax/Sci/Lux sliders, along with the immunity to bribery.

Trucks come with Corp, which requires Indust plus Econ. They pay 50% better than Camels, though.

The "only build by river or mtn" rule applies to the regular Hydro Plant, not Hoover Dam.

 

[funxus]

Originally posted by ElephantU
The primary benefit of Democracy is the extra flexibility in the Tax/Sci/Lux sliders, along with the immunity to bribery.

And no corruption or waste in demo. If you have many cities or colonies, demo helps a lot in these cities.

 

[Sparta]

exactly funxus; i hadn't realized that difference from civ3 (no corruption in demo). what a difference that makes. anyway, i'd revolted right away last night (i think i messed up the oedo list - i revolted in 1590 in king level and it still took a few turns somehow). i unfortunately did actually miss out on adam smith's, as i revolted before finishing the caravans before it, but not the end of the world. did get shakespeare's, and am working on the caravans for women's suffrage, which i should have finished in a few more turns, at which point i'll continue making caravans for hoover dam. man does democracy make a huge difference though (i think in civ3 you get the extra trade per square for republic and democracy both). also, i was even happier with the fact that during last night's session, i added like 9 cities or something, so i've come back from a 32-22 cities defecit to retake the lead with 41-36; pretty good growth stint. that included getting all of the two target islands i was hoping for near my opponent. 3/4 goals isn't bad at all.

anyway, thanks again for all the advice and help everyone. and btw, Old n Slow - i'm definitely going to take you up on your freight advice as soon as is reasonable (after a couple more wonders) - i really need to learn to incorporate trade more anyway, and simultaneously hooking up myself and my friend's unhappy japanese neighbors, who will be his next opponent, seems a perfect thing to do in the meantime while destroying the other AI civs.

thanks for the advice all! have a good one!

 

[ElephantU]

Originally posted by funxus

And no corruption or waste in demo. If you have many cities or colonies, Demo helps a lot in these cities.

My apologies. I thought that had been mentioned already. It also applies in Commy and Fundy.