Question on how Religion plays out

[sela1s1son]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a religion "born" in the *FIRST* civ that discovers the required Civilization Advance? Thus allowing for religions to have a more regional tie as opposed to randomly splattered?

Example: Assume I'm on the world map (with utterly random locations) and I'm playing the Greeks and I started in Australia. I'm the first to discover the Civilization Advance the allows "ReligionXYZ", does that mean ReligionXYZ will start in (remember, I'm using the Earth map to make it easy to understand) Australia? So if the Mongolians discover that same Advance (and they started in Ireland we'll say) that means that religion won't start there...


I'm just trying to understand the dynamics here, as it'd make much more sense to me if a religion started in one spot and grew out from there, as opposed to being splattered all over the planet more or less around at the same time (if we assume the civs are discovering advances at more or less the same rate).

-- slight edit

In fact IIRC a city in your civ becomes "the holy city" for that relgion and is the first (and only) spot that the religion starts off at. In other words your whole civilization isn't ReligionXYZ... but perhaps Delphi has a growing/strong presence of ReligionXYZ which then expands out from there.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, I will see if I can field this question for you. You are mostly right, but a civ must actively CHOOSE to found a religion if he is the first to discover its requisite tech. As far as I know, though, there is no requirement for the civ in question to do so (which may mean that the next civ to get the tech might themselves have an option to found the religion.)
Its true that the founder of a religion gets one of its cities designated as a 'Holy City'-but on what basis I cannot say, though I think you are probably right about the 'religious presence' within that city (possibly culture based).
As for how religions spread, it is based on several key factors-your Religion civic setting, the Religion civic setting of your neighbours, the degree of trade you have with other civs, the strength of your religion (number of improvements and wonders and such like) and the use of missionaries.
That said, though, once again you are broadly correct that religions will-at least initially-have a regional distribution. However, like RL religions, I wouldn't be suprised if it can spread to wholly different regions, if only via diplomacy and encouraging other civs to adopt your faith as their state religion.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Origen]

a civ must actively CHOOSE to found a religion if he is the first to discover its requisite tech. As far as I know, though, there is no requirement for the civ in question to do so (which may mean that the next civ to get the tech might themselves have an option to found the religion.)

Hmm, see, I was wondering this myself, but for different reasons than Sela. Are you sure (and Aussie, you're great, here and on Apolyton for getting good info out - you are the man! but I hafta ask, how sure are you) that there's a point where one chooses to establish the religion that the tech one has just researched grants? I would hope it is the way you describe, so that there is a chance to spread the religions out between civs (assuming you're playing with more civs than there are religion options) - because if the first to discover a tech was forcibly/automatically assigned the religion, one civ could, in theory, make a dash (on purpose, or just becuase thats the direction the player/AI chose/was programmed for) through parts of the tech tree through at least three religion-tech-prereqs (that I can see from the tree they showed in screenies), in almost one swoop (Poly -> Mono -> Theo nets you: Hinduism, Judaism, and Christianity). Would a player or AI - through choice, design, or programming - be able to snag three religions while others were researching other techs? Would a player want to? Would an AI want to? Would an AI know well enough not to try and snag all the religions? Even if it is a choice, would an AI try to get their hands on as many religions as they could? Would the AI want to? Would a human player want to? (Keep in mind the presumably late-tech civic option of freedom of religion, which benefits civs with multiple religions)

Many of these are questions you cant answer, I imagine, Aussie, but I know you're observant enough that you'd spot the answers to some of the questions, if indeed the answer is out there. I'm just so sure I havnt seen confirmation that establishing the religion you've researched the paired tech for is a choice.

 

[Dearmad]

My bet is once your civ "discovers" a religion, you don't get to discover another. But it's just a guess.

 

[JavalTigar]

My bet is once your civ "discovers" a religion, you don't get to discover another. But it's just a guess.

If your right, why bother putting religion in the first place. Since there is no bonus between the different religions (bad call IMO), why not, at the start of the game give a player a religion at random?

I can't see why you would not choose the first one out the gate (hinduism, I believe). And then start spreading it like crazy to get what ever possible advantage that comes from doing so. (used to be line of of site and I still believe some sort of tithe type bonus).

However, if you have the oppotunity to found multiple religions I can see this a viable winning strategy. The money possiblities would be fantastic.

I guess we will have to see.

 

[pilight]

Maybe a player would like to found a religion and then rush to the techs for the others in order to make sure they never get founded, assuming that only the first one to the tech has the option.

 

[The_CatSnack]

There are a few screenshots on this site showing one city being the holy city for several different religions. They say that the FIRST civ to unlock the technology required for a religion founds the religion and there can only be one holy city per religion so I assume that there will be a race between civs for at least one religion (to get the benefits of actually owning a holy city i.e. Line of sight, religion management, etc.) Man this concept sounds like fun as there are only 7 religions but there can be pleanty more civs on the map... This game will be awesome

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well I would presume either

1. There is no choice, just like you can't pass up the free tech for philosophy, you cant pass the religion if you get the tech first.

2. Every player to discover the tech gets the choice until someone chooses it

I would prefer it to be # 1 because religion should be more of something that you have to deal with, instead of a technological development.. so that if you want to rush the religion side of the tree you take the risk of getting multiple competing religions in your territory.

I'd also be seriously disappointed if a civ can't found multiple religions (given that of the ones they picked two were founded in India, 2 in China, and the other three all founded within ~100 miles of each other)


While I agree that that Does make a 'Religion dash' possible, the other thing to remember is that the tech tree will probably be more strongly controlled by cost than prerequisites.

 

[Origen]

It was stated in an interview that a city can be the Holy city for more than one religion.

Ausieeeeeee! We neeeeed yoooooooo!

@Krikk: I would hope that the prospect of having more than one religion in your borders near the start of the game would be such a huge deterent to happiness/stability (some of the cities I've seen in screenies with more than one religion are accompanied by red sad faces more often than their one-religion-city counterparts - could be a coincidence, or I could just be wrong, or it could be attributable to their debug mode), that it would be a a disincentive to hoard the religions. That the AI and human players would actively avoid getting more than one religion. So, in that line, I'd prefer your option #2 sort of, in that we could research techs, but opt out of being saddled (assuming an addition religion would be a burden) with the paired religion.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Okay, I have seen a screenshot (albiet a very early one) which shows a civ getting Polytheism, and being asked by the computer if they wish to Found Hinduism-yes or no? This suggests that founding a religion is NOT automatic.

Now, I also strongly suspect that a single player can found more than one religion-if he were fortunate enough to be first to all the techs. However, given that the techs which unlock the seven religions are all on different branches of the tech tree, I doubt any player-even if beelining-would be lucky enough to found more than 2-3 religions in one game.

Thirdly, its one thing to found a religion, but its probably different from what your State Religion is. If a Civ founded both Hinduism and Judaism-for instance-what would they choose as their state religion if and when they adopt the Organised Religion Civic (either way, they are certain to Piss off one section of their society !) In fact, I doubt there would be anything to stop a player from having founded two religions, but adopting a 3rd faith as their State religion-even if it was the faith founded by another civ. For instance, imagine if a civ was fortunate enough to found Bhuddism and Hinduism (Both perfectly likely in a historical context). For years they have Bhuddism as their State religion, but with a mix of Bhuddist and Hindu cities. Then, along comes another civ that founded Islam. As part of diplomatic negotiations, the latter civ asks the former to adopt Islam as their State religion, which they do...now they have 3 religions in their nation-Islam, Hinduism and Bhuddism (sound familiar?) Of course, until they adopt freedom of religion as a civic choice, those Hindu and Bhuddist cities are probably going to be a little unhappy with their leader !
You know, I could be wrong about many-or all-of the thought I have put forward here, but even if I am right about even half of it, then religion is sounded like a more and more intriguing part of the game !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[sela1s1son]

You know, I could be wrong about many-or all-of the thought I have put forward here, but even if I am right about even half of it, then religion is sounded like a more and more intriguing part of the game !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I hope you're correct, including the assumption that you get to choose to start a religion. It will make the game A LOT more interesting and fun.

And I'm *guessing* Freedom of Religion is a choice that isn't available nearly as soon as official/state religion or Theocracy. So in the late game you could start trying to make your people diverse in faith, and have Freedom of Religion. From they've said civs with many faiths that have Freedom of Religion selected benefit from it. Likely that will push a common trend in civs: one or two primary faiths early on that are either official or leading them and eventually a more free and tolerant society in which more and more faiths are comfortable. Of course this doesn't mean it always occur like that, nor is that the only path that may prove rewarding. Makes relgion/civics a *much* more replayable system that won't become an automated/routine path.

Also encourages you to think of how your various stratagies effect each other. You political choices will have a significant effect on your culture plans (both in generic culture and religion) and VICE VERSA. Both of which will effect your military plans as it will be concievably harder to conquer and assimilate cities/regions that are a different faith then your civ (if it isn't even in your civ at all), yet rewarding in some ways also. The dynamics here look VERY fun to play with. I love the fact that it's more likely you will play each game differently depending on how things develop. Makes it more exciting, and prevents a formulaic approach to victory.

Civ IV is looking better and better! IT looks like it will have much more replay value then previous Civilizations which will be nice!

 

[Crayton]

At first, I'd think there shouldn't be a "Found Religion?" option. It sounds too artificial, while religions are/were very organic.

Then I thought: "Who would pass up the chance to found a religion if they don't have one yet?" Are there any negatives to having a religion instead of "Paganism"? If not then no one would pass up on the first few religions, even if there were an option.

With regards to the later religions, who would want to found those. Presumably, a civ that is still "Pagan" or has a large variety of religions. The "Pagan" civ would choose for assumed reasons stated above. The multi-religion civ would choose the new religion so that most of it's nation would become united under a single religion (assuming new religions get that out-of-the-box explosion).

Is it conceivable that a religion would not get founded? I wouldn't be entirely bothered by this but I'd sure like to see at least 5 religions in a game. Will civs get an option to found an earlier religion long after all civilizations have progressed through the trigger technology?

 

[sela1s1son]

At first, I'd think there shouldn't be a "Found Religion?" option. It sounds too artificial, while religions are/were very organic.

Then I thought: "Who would pass up the chance to found a religion if they don't have one yet?" Are there any negatives to having a religion instead of "Paganism"? If not then no one would pass up on the first few religions, even if there were an option.

With regards to the later religions, who would want to found those. Presumably, a civ that is still "Pagan" or has a large variety of religions. The "Pagan" civ would choose for assumed reasons stated above. The multi-religion civ would choose the new religion so that most of it's nation would become united under a single religion (assuming new religions get that out-of-the-box explosion).

Is it conceivable that a religion would not get founded? I wouldn't be entirely bothered by this but I'd sure like to see at least 5 religions in a game. Will civs get an option to found an earlier religion long after all civilizations have progressed through the trigger technology?

I think in the early game having Umpteen number of religions may create uncrest (a schism essentially). Freedom of Religion probably comes later in the game, so you'd risk having to fight a lot of unhappiness until then.. where as later in the game you may encourage other religions to spread to your civilization to derive Freedom of Religion benefits.

It is also possible that:
Imagine I'm playing the Greeks. Alright, I'm researching techs and paving forward. I discover Polytheism, and it asks me to found Hinduism, so I say "Arlight, that's cool". However, if I go through a Trigger tech it might not let me choose to found a religion (or perhaps there's a lower percentage chance I can, so sometimes I could and others I can't), to allow another civ to found a religion.

Personally I think with each religion I accept/found, it should become more and more unlikely I will be able to found a new religion (once I get the tech) which allow religions to be more spread out on the globe, while two may find themselves sharing origens.

IE: As the Greeks I found Hinduiusm, however when I discover Monotheism I'm not given the choise to found Judaism due to the random chance indicating I can't, but the Mali (on the other side of the planet on this map) are the next one to get Monotheism and decide to found Judaism. This trend would continue, theorecticaly spreading religion out, but as it is tied to Civilization Advances also allowing the potential for two religions to be "connected" in terms of geography.

It would be wise that first tech you get, you can found the religion... but after that you're *not always* given the option to found the associated religion. This would prevent Religion Rushing, and combined with possible early-mid game negative consequences of multiple religions, may allow religions to spread out more.


---
Edit: I think Paganism will, and should, be an actual religion in the game, thus when you DO found a religion you already have two religions. Paganism probably representing a civilization's pagans faith (IE: Rome is essentially "Roman Paganism", etc) thus eliminating a need for a Holy City for the Paganism of Civ IV, but still allowing for the room for the dichomity of competeing relgions. This would only enhance the idea that "Religion Rushing" would be a bad tactic.

 

[Origen]

OK, Aussie, this is the one that I was thinking of, is it also the one you're thinking of? I found it here at Apolyton, among the very oldest screenies

Now, here, its cleary talking about changing it over to the state religion - not giving you a choice to establish it. That appears to be fait accompli, in Beijing.

But this screenie, although what we see jives with what little has been said in interviews, is very very very old. If they tweaked anything... hmm... I'm just not sure.

Thoughts?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

You know, I discovered that same screenshot again just a couple of hours ago, and was about to write a corrective post on the subject.
So, if this screenshot holds true, then there IS a seperation between founding a religion (which is automatic) and converting to a religion (which is a choice). The two questions I obviously have are:

1) If a player converts to a religion, does this add potency to how quickly the religion spreads to other cities?

2) If the founding civ does not convert to that religion, can anyone else still convert to it and, if yes, then do they first need to have acquired that same tech?

All of what we know, though-and even what we don't know -raises a heck of lot of interesting questions regarding in-game religion effects!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Origen]

Hmm...

Well, as to 1): based on what I've read in other interviews, trade and civics (missionaries aside) settings are understood as 'multipliers' of the spread of religion, but that it does it on its own (how religion spreads, all-other-things-being-equal or the 'basic equation,' so to speak, is not something that's ever been laid out in any interview, etc). I dont remember if changing to it as your state rel. spreads it faster, or if it would still operate on the 'basic equation's' rules... I'm thinking I remember someone saying it does speed it up...

2) Hmm, this quewstion is basically asking: under what circumstances do you get the trigger screen/popup asking you if you want to change. Do you need to:
-Have the tech?
-Be in contact with a civ that has that rel as its state rel and have it demand that change of you?
-Select it from a user interface thingy similar to the change of gov't interface, available at all times? (With choices based on who you know and their religions, and/or your tech advancement?)

Questions questions questions....... I'm glad I can count the release date in weeks!

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I am assuming that, if a nation comes to you and asks you to convert to their faith, that no other prerequisites need to be met by the potentially converting civ. The only time I believe it may be an issue is if a religion is founded by a civ, but not actually adopted as their state religion. Under these circumstances, it seems reasonable to expect that any other civ which may wish to convert to the religion would either (a) require the prerequisite technology or (b) have contact with the founding civ and/or have 1 or more of its own cities already practicing the faith.
As to question 1, I believe it is reasonable that a faith will spread faster after it is adopted as the State religion by its founder. After all, if they adopt it, then suddenly the faith has the entire weight of that civs culture behind it.
Consider this as an interesting RL analogy. Christianity is founded in the Roman city of Jerusalem but, at first, only spreads very very slowly. Then, after a while, Rome sees the advantage of converting to Christianity as its State religion. After that, the religion spreads like wildfire throughout Western Europe-though helped along by missionaries !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

It was stated in an interview that a city can be the Holy city for more than one religion.

(some of the cities I've seen in screenies with more than one religion are accompanied by red sad faces more often than their one-religion-city counterparts - could be a coincidence, or I could just be wrong, or it could be attributable to their debug mode),

Just wondering, do you have the screenies where a City is of more than one religion (as opposed to the city of one religion and the Civ that owns it having a different official religion)

Also I would hope that there Are no requirements for establishing an official religion, so that you could declare Hinduism the official religion before Hinduism exists... of course that would only have penalties because you can't get Hindu cities until Hinduism exists somewhere...
so it would be possible, but you couldn't get any benefits until

You are in contact with (or are) a Civ that has a Hindu city (or the Hindu Holy City) in it.

You would get no diplomatic benefits under the assumption that the AI won't do something That stupid (declaring an official religion that doesn't exist in contact with it in anyway).

PS unfortunately that analogy doesn't work too well, Christianity spread rapidly in and out of most of the Empire Until it was the state religion (although the backwoods Western empire may be the exception). However the reasoning (and how it will work in Civ) is sound

 

[Yzman123]

I doubt you would be able to declar hinduism the official religion before it is founded, how would you know about it?

 

[sela1s1son]

I just had a neat idea, although it may come with an expansion:

Alrist Let's say Civ IV Expansion #1 had been released, and we're all happy and giddy. To our delight we find the religion concept has been tweaked, but in the following fashion:

First they add X number of religions for this new aspect of it.

Each game has Y number of Religions when the TOTAL number of religions in the game is higher. There are three ways this may be done:

A) You select the religions that will be in your game (perhaps you have a minimum number to choose) and only those religions are triggered.

B) The game ranomly selects X number of religions to be in the game (X may be a preset number (IE: 7 as it stands), or may vary on the size of the map and/or the number of civs in the game)

C) Perhaps they add more religions so, when you get a civilization advance it might trigger either one of two religions (determined at the discovery) and you can choose to found it or not. [Alternative could be you could choose to found either, or none] Assuming you do found it (or one of them for that matter) the next person to get the Civilization Advance could choose to found the other. The game might only allow X number of religions in the game (a fixed number, or determined by size of map and/or # of civs).

The advantage of C, is that it could really deter "Religion Rushing" (trying to found all the religions yourself to gain an advantage). As if you could only found one of X number of religions, then that would leave the rest (or other) to be founded by other civilizations if they so chose to.

The Advantage of B (and this applies to C as well) as it would allow more replayability as it wouldn't be so matemathical (you might rush for civilization advance X thinking you'll get a religion, but to your surprise you don't... meanwhile a different civ gets to Civ Adance Y (which you ignored focusing on C.A. X) allowing them to found ReligionXYZ).

Either B or C would be much more preferable to A IMHO. It could really force you to think your religious/cultural (and thus civics and military) stratagy a little more on the fly, which would be a lot more fun and realistic... how often do those two go together?