Questions about Balor and Mercurian Civs...

[BlakeTheDrake]

I'm planning 'runs' for both of the non-starting civs, and basically planning the development of my starting civ to give them optimal starting conditions. So answer me these questions three...

1: What are the exact limitations and capabilities of Hyborem's Whisper? I've heard that it can't be used to take the Sheaim Capital, while someone else mentioned that you can take THREE cities with it, not just one.

2: When completing the Mercurian Gate, what happens to the units stationed in the converted city? Do they remain unchanged, or are they converted as well?

3: Switching to the Mercurians, your Original Civ becomes your ally - but just how powerful is that alliance? Would it be best to keep them as strong allies, or weaken them before the completion of the gate to make them easy and quick to conquer?

4: What, exactly, 'transfers over' when you switch to another civ? Your tech-tree? Your money? Both, neither?

...how did it wind up as FOUR questions, you ask? Hmm... actually, I don't know...

AAAARGGGH! *falls into chasm*

 

[DaveGold]

From what I can tell you need Malevolent Designs to use Hyborem's whisper. You are offered a choice of one from three offered AV cities. I don't know which cities are offered as I once took Acheron's city which was a bit silly.

Nothing special happens to the units in Mercurian gate city.

You don't conquer Mercurian allies. They are permanent allies. The decisions about setting up the gate are all pretty situational.

With Hyborem you inherit your old nations technology and develop new technology separately. The Mercurians research jointly with their allies.

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

So, the permanent alliance with the Mercurians is REALLY permanent? No way to break it and seize control of the ones who summoned you? 'cuz I'd REALLY hate to watch the AI mismanaged my lands. Plus, even permanent allies won't trade you resources they only got ONE of, right? Could put a real crimper on my development.

Anyway, I'd still like a definite answer to whether Hyborem's Whisper can seize the Sheaim Capital City. If not, I need to make sure to build the wonders and make most of the development in a secondary city. If it CAN, then there's no need to bother - I can just grow my capital to my heart's content, safe in the knowledge that it will soon belong to Hyborem!

Still wanna know whether you keep your gold, too. It has an influence.

 

[Jarrema]

Mercurians WILL trade everything with You

 

[UncleJJ]

I'm planning 'runs' for both of the non-starting civs, and basically planning the development of my starting civ to give them optimal starting conditions. So answer me these questions three...

I think it might be advisable to play a game with Infernals and another game with then Mercurians so you have a good feel for their capabilities before trying to play a game with both.

1. You are offered a list of the 3 cities with Ashen Veil and can only pick one of those. I believe the list is the largest 3 cities with AV that are not another civ's capital. The list never contains a capital so you could never get the Sheaim's capital that way. If I summon the Infernals (and I don't want to play them) I usually move my capital to the city with AV shrine in it, so they can't steal it. I also try to knock them out quickly as possible since they are an annoyance when I want a monopoly on being evil

2. The units of the other civ are in permanent alliance with the Mercurians and can move through your lands freely. You get the city and its buildings and any settled specialists. I usually use the Luchuirp to make the Mercurian gate and have several of the free engineers from the golden hammers plus a settled GE. That gets the Mercurians off to a good start with regard to GPP generation, and as they start with an empty GPP pool, another GE pops out in a few turns.

3. The AI is usually very bad at managing the other half of the permamant alliance. In my game they just spammed loads of troops and starved their cities by building loads of workshops that cut the chain irrigation. They looked good on the power curve but didn't do anything useful or even research much. I was soon making 6 times as many beakers with the Mercurians and I had to do all the fighting. I was essentially playing on my own but started with a very good capital city.

4. Davegold answered that question succinctly

I would not recommend trying this double game until you have played with both civs separately in normal games.

 

[DaveGold]

The AI is usually very bad at managing the other half of the permamant alliance.

This is sort of true. The AI ally will play at the same level as your AI opponents and only make the same mistakes they do. Your ally will have all the old units upgraded very quickly and lose any heroes in the first major battle, just like your AI opponents.

I'm planning 'runs' for both of the non-starting civs, and basically planning the development of my starting civ to give them optimal starting conditions

Hyborem is never really optimal. The more you develop your host nation the more opposition you're giving yourself later. The best time to dig out the infernals is when you start in the most unpromising swampy mess, and that's the fun of it, imho.

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

Ah... well, I didn't mean play both civs in ONE game... like, I'm planning TWO games, one for each. >_>;

...but now that you mention it, doing both at once seems like it'd have some interesting potential. Obviously, it would have to be Balor-then-Mercurians, since the Mercurians can't switch to Ashen Veil religion, which is necessary for researching Infernal Pact. But presumably, even if the Balor build the Mercurial Gate, they won't become a permanent ally. Presumably. Although, I admit, it WOULD rock to conquer the world with a combined army of angels and demons...

...regardless, that is useful information. I'd misunderstood Hyborem's Whisper, apparently - thought it only worked on Sheaim cities, when it apparently works on any city with Ashen Veil. But no capitals, huh? Well, there are ways to handle that. Either founding a second city as quickly as possible and then making that my main production-center... or moving my capital right before unleashing the Balor, by building a Castle in some unimportant backwater. (Which is where my 'does the money transfer' question comes in - if it doesn't, I could hurry the palace construction with gold. Hurrying with slaves has... limits.) Either way, if I've understood correctly, you start with some fairly nice relations between the Balor and whoever summoned them, but no Permanent Alliance - so I can just conquer my old empire anyway. Disbanding my entire standing army right before the summoning would probably help...

OTOH, it sucks that you're chained into a permanent, unbreakable alliance with whoever summons the Mercurians. I mean... it's not like it wouldn't make sense for the angels to turn on their summoners. A sort of "You are not without sin, mortals! Be purified in the flames of Heaven!" thing, y'know? Ah well, at least with that I don't need to worry about moving capitals and whatnot. I don't think I'll do it with the Luchuirp, though - practical though it may be, I'm more concerned with the thematic appeal, so I'll do it with one of the archetypically 'Good To The Max' civs - Bannor, Elohim, maybe Kuriotates. The sort of types you could kinda' imagine calling upon a host of angels to fight for them. Dwarves seem too earthbound for such flights of fancy, if you ask me. (Same reason I'm not going to use the Grigori to get an easy 'Altar' victory - it doesn't make sense for a civ of agnostics to win by summoning God. Come to think of it, the Elohim are probably the most appropriate users of the Altar... so it's either Bannor or Kuriotates for Mercurians. It's just the way I work...)

 

[Pickly]

so I can just conquer my old empire anyway. Disbanding my entire standing army right before the summoning would probably help...

I wouldn't recommend this, since you never know where the infernals will end up when you summon them (you could very well end up on a different continent, and/or really far away). What most strategies recommend is to declare war on any evil civiulizations in the area with your old civilization a couple of turns or so before you transfer, which will supply you with manes. (Playing as the Shaeim to summon won't give you as many manes due to pyre zombies being non-living, but other civilizations will supply them when you declare war.)

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

Ooooh... I did not know that. I guess I kinda' just figured that the Infernals would pop up somewhere nearby. That DOES change things...

But if their starting-location is random, then I suppose I COULD ensure that they wind up near my original empire with a bit of good ol' fashioned save-scumming. Ya know, save right before I finish the summon, then reload 'till I get a decent location. Fair, it is not, but what do you expect from a bunch of demons?

 

[UncleJJ]

The last game I played the Infernals was about 6 months ago (and so details may have changed with subsequent patches). I was Calabrim and had about 6 cities when I finished Infernal Pact, and the Infernals appeared on my Northern border.

I simply donated all my cities, except the capital, to Hyborem who accepted them before it was his turn. I also disbanded most of the better Calabrim troops (only moroi and warriors IIRC). I didn't think to donate my gold

Then next turn (or maybe when it was Hyborems turn, I'm not sure about this detail) the game asked me if I wanted to switch and obviously I selected Infernals. That way I started with a size 12 city, with the AV shrine and an academy, and 2 size 7 cities and 2 smaller cities, before I settled my first real Infernal city. I did that, and immediately sent (gated) Hyborem and the good troops he has with him to the city nearest the Calabrim capital. I captured it about 2 turns later, and had another nice city.

It almost felt like cheating; getting all those cities ready made (plus the free Infernal buildings were added), plus Hyborem (a very powerful hero in the middle game) and I still had the Infernal settlers and 12 manes (was it?) with iron in the palace. That game was a breeze and I didn't even bother to finish as the other civs never stood a chance. I'm not sure if gifting cities works every time (maybe Hyborem won't accept gifted cities if they're too far away) or even if it can still be done with the changes in subsequent patches. But if you can do this it makes a great introduction to the Infernals.

 

[Emptiness]

Obviously, it would have to be Balor-then-Mercurians, since the Mercurians can't switch to Ashen Veil religion, which is necessary for researching Infernal Pact. But presumably, even if the Balor build the Mercurial Gate, they won't become a permanent ally. Presumably. Although, I admit, it WOULD rock to conquer the world with a combined army of angels and demons...

Unfortunately, it is possible for the Infernals to build the Mercurian Gate - provided they don't convert to AV. Also unfortunately, when they build the Mercurian Gate, they do enter into a permanent alliance with the Mercurians. I would prefer that the Infernals were automatically converted to AV immediately and/or specifically blocked from building the Mercurian Gate, since the Mercurians only reason for existing (as a nation) is to destroy Demons and thus would never ally themselves with the Infernals (who therefore would never build a gate to invite them into Erebus). Oh well...

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

Now THAT is brilliant, Uncle JJ. That 'delay' between summoning the Infernals and getting the chance to control them certainly makes everything easier... well, at least if you force 'em to spawn somewhere nearby.

Interesting question: Does summoning the Mercurians work in the same way? If so, you could pull the same stunt there - donating your entire empire to them, leaving your 'ally' with just one city to control, preferably somewhere contained. Would certainly improve matters in my eyes... actually, can't you donate units too? Maybe even heroes? Hmm... a wealth of possibilities appear...

As for the Infernal-Mercurian Alliance being possible... unexpected, I must say. Opens up some interesting potential explanations. Like, angels and demons suddenly banding together and going "Yeah, that whole 'war between Heaven and Hell' thing? Just something we made up to pit you against each other. That way, we BOTH get lots of handy souls. In reality, we're really the best of friends... and now, it's time for us to wipe out you mortals and take this world for our own, so we can rule it together as BFF's. Sorry."

 

[PekkaR]

On Hyborem/Infernals:

You don't really need (to tech for) Hyborem's Whisper. Summoning early Hyborem has all the power he needs to take those cities, and evil civilizations make excellent targets to get more Manes. It doesn't even need to be all that early, you could wait to grab some econ techs and Priesthood and play some Somnium. Hyborem has generally appeared nearby in my games but I'm not always paying attention to the locations when others summon him. You do need some fog-covered wilderness like with Orthus, I believe.

On Basium/Mercurians:

Basium seems awfully passive but sometimes looking big on power curve is all he needs to do for you. You'll have peace when you want it and you can ask around for gifts because you are teamed with such a friendly guy. Big friendly guy. He has also been a big pain couple of times after AI summoned him, mainly by helping defend his teammate's lands against me. Just remember you'll be part of those automatic war declarations to Ashen Veil civs once he's in your team...

 

[DaveGold]

But if their starting-location is random, then I suppose I COULD ensure that they wind up near my original empire with a bit of good ol' fashioned save-scumming. Ya know, save right before I finish the summon, then reload 'till I get a decent location.

It's actually more fun to appear on some other nation's doorstep in some ridiculous position and then dig yourself out of the hole. The infernals are strong enough and can get almost anything done if they're lucky enough.

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

If I wanna practice digging myself out of holes, I'll play a 'High To Low' game instead.

Incidentally, does anybody know which civs are more likely to build the Mercurial Gate under AI control? I kinda' wanna do the whole 'battle between good and evil' thing, and while I know that the Sheaim will bring the Infernals quick as you please, I'm not sure who I should invite to the party to ensure that the Mercurians will be around to dance with during my Infernals-game...

 

[Calavente]

i can't say.

I had the khazad, the bannor, the sidar, the elohim and the kuriotates "summoning" the mercurians in my last games.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

As for the infernals, Keelyn is the best leader to insure they show up, not the Sheaim.

both love to beeline AV/infernal pact but Keelyn has a much better early economy

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

Hmm... all the more reason to invite the Sheaim. I want the Infernals to show up, but I don't want them to show up TOO early, or I might not have the capacity to attack them in time. You KNOW they're gonna be picking fights with anyone who looks at them oddly from the moment they appear, and I'd rather slay Hyborem myself, instead of seeing him lost in some skirmish between AI's... as he is wont to do.

 

[UncleJJ]

The AI controlled Infernals are often a big dissapointment. In the last few patches they seem to have difficulty finding a place to settle. I have seen their initial stack of units move around a bit and then stay in the same spot for 20 turns or more without founding a city. When that happens I get together a nice little attack force including some mages or catapults and kill Hyborem for the equipment called Gela that he carries. Don't expect them to put up much opposition if you're playing Mercurian.

 

[BlakeTheDrake]

...demonic hobos? >_>;