Questions from an old (civ1) player

[sandmandh]

I've been playing civ from the halcyon days of civ1 in the early 90's and I reached emperor level in civ2, but there's still some issues bugging me in civ3 that I notice the AI doing differently. Currently playing emperor level - can't quite come to grips with anything higher yet. Yep I've read some threads so redirect me (or forgive me)...

1. early on it's all about expansion fast - and if you're lucky enough to start with a city with some shield tiles - do you mine this to produce a faster settler, or go for a irrigable tile somewhere else? in civ2 the AI choice was mining but it's different here... I notice a popular tactic is for the capital to produce many settlers if possible... but isn't your capital the best to produce wonders cos of the least corruption and therefore most shields generally?

2. do you like building the second city sharing tiles with the mother city? this was a good choice in those days, but nowadays it tends to become a large hindrance in mid to late game when you wish you didn't rape your first two to three cities of tiles. I notice in high level games you guys do a lot of tile sharing - is this in an effort to win by midgame?

3. what about all the civ specialist abilities? agriculture for fast growth? militaristic for quicker elite? religious - does the anarchy bonus really count in the long run of things? romans for their strong sword that I've used for early conquests... heck there was NEVER this much choice in civ2... in civ2 it was all about early defensive units then a few catapults etc and you were regarded the powerhouse

4. being aggressive certainly helped in the old days, but nowadays with all these other methods of victory... heck I just can't bring myself to be nice to opponents I trade until the opponent is no longer useful, then I just whack them out of the game... wish I can bring myself to living in peace with neighbours - but then I find them walking over a nice resource that I wanted! and luxury is vital for playing emperor or higher in c3c

5. defending cities - better to use bombardment - or just build more spears etc? I tested this one game with many catapult and artillery and they work surprisingly well. Miss the old days where catapult was just an attack of 6
- dunno about you but I find pillaging just 'nasty' and I don't do it - often cos I regret it once I take the city

6. hate spaceship race - I turn it off - but I am intrigued by culture win - but I have never managed to get a city to 20000 culture - probably cos I got so bored of the game by midgame domination that I never bothered - and now with c3c it's even harder to rush wonders unlike c3 where I got a fair amount of leaders to rush them - and O BOY do I miss the old method of cranking up caravans to rush wonders

7. what do you regard as the must get wonders of the game? and the ToA - do you hold off education to max its benefit? Problem with this at emperor level you tend to slack in the science race if you do this. Sometimes I wonder if ToA is useless and one must rather go for GL or something else like pyramids for expansion? At high levels it's sometimes impossible to keep up with the AI 'cheating'. Any opinions are welcome.

Thanks guys.
I keep coming back to civ for its eternal playability. Bah with fps and rpg etc where the appeal comes to an end...
Sandman

 

[smackster]

So many questions.

For 1), you just need to get a city, any city, producing settlers as quickly as possible. The most important goal is a city that has 5 excess food points per turn and ideally producing at least 26 shields per 4 turns, put a Granary in there and you'll get a settler every 4 turns (you need 30 shields for a settler, but each time the city grows, you'll get a bonus, if you have a spare 2 shield tile, you will get a bonus of 4).

Wonders are nice to have, but the above is so much more important and a guarantee of success, so focus on that first, and if only if you have a spare city, with high production build any wonders. On higher levels I tend not to even try to build wonders these days.

 

[thetrooper]

Many questions, I answer some (assorted):

1. Mine green, irrigate yellow/white in the early game. There are exceptions - if your city tiles consists of many hills/mountains, irrigate any food bonus resources (wheat, wines or cattle). There is the despotism penalty on food too. Get yourself out of despotism.

2. I hate to share tiles between cities. I never do it on lower levels, but find it necessary on higher levels. But that is just my taste of playing.

4. Evil, but true. I use my neighbours as long as I gain - afterwards annihilation.

And BTW - welcome to the forums.

 

[planetfall]

Welcome to forum. Check out the War Academy and topics for detailed answers to your questions. Here are some short answers that work on Emperor or lower difficulty levels:


1. EARLY ON
At lowest levels you can just expand and expand. If you are at a higher level or have barbs at highest level, you need to temper expansion with defenders. Look in academy for details on Settler Factories and Worker actions by Cracker.

2. SECOND CITY
Some put 2..3 tiles away and use as temporary city. I don't like to do this and prefer about 4 tiles away. A neat tool to help in deciding where to put cities it CRpRings from
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2148442#post2148442

3. TRIBES TRAITS
Try them out, that's part of the fun. If barbs are turned off, exploration is very weak.
If you like early defensive games, try Greece. If you like early offense, you might try Zulu's.

4. HUMAN AGGRESSION LEVELS
It all depends on victory condition pursuing. If you are playing at high level, you can't be aggressive early because of AI bonuses. I don't know about C1 but with C3C there are usually 1 or 2 KAI {killer AI civs}.

5. CITY DEFENSE
Remember the old maxim, " the best defense is a good offense"? I don't like spears. I would rather go swords or pikes.

6. VICTORY CONDITIONS
You're right spaceship is boring, boring. Culture is not ONE city to 20,000 but a culture lead. You should play at least one game for culture victory to see if you like it or not.

7. WONDERS
There are no must wonders. Don't know what ToA is. At Monarch/Emporor I never go for Pyramids as it is a waste of time. Much easier to let others build wonders and if need wonder, conquer city. The only ones I will even go for are: Sistine, Smiths, ToE, and Hoovers. Hoovers is the closest to a must wonder for me. I can play fine without any of the others.

Careful with C3C, luxuries are quite constrained and you need to figure out how to play without having happiness problems.


PF

 

[Dreadnought]

1- No barbs/lower levels= quick expansion, more barbs + higher levels = more defense
2-i personally keep cities close, for defensive purposes ( 2 tiles away )
3-depends on what you wanna do in the game
4-on high difs you can't get the AI in early times because he starts with so much (like planetfall said)
5-i like using bombardment to defend cities
6-I hate SSR too. Culture victories are almost impossible if you dont decide in the begining that you want to do it
7-Wonders...(here we go)

These wonder you should defeitly go for:

Pyramids
Sun Tzu's
JS Bach's
Shakespere's
Cure for Cancer
IDS
Leo's
Theory of Evol
Hoover Dam
Collosus
Hanging Gardens
Copern's Obser
Newton's Uni
SETI Pro
MoM
Smith Trade Comp

Depending on your stradegy:

GL
Sistine Chaple
MGV
Universal Soff.
GW
Knights Temp
Longetivity
UN
MP

Never Build:

Great Lighthouse
Oracle
ToA
Statue of Zeus

Think i got em all

 

[EdwardTking]

1. but isn't your capital the best to produce wonders cos of the least corruption and therefore most shields generally?

Problem with using Capital for Great Wonders is another Civ may get the wonder first. If building outside of capital, you can just switch to building the Palace until you obtain tech to build another unbuilt desirable GW.

2. do you like building the second city sharing tiles with the mother city? this was a good choice in those days, but nowadays it tends to become a large hindrance in mid to late game when you wish you didn't rape your first two to three cities of tiles.

Very true

I notice in high level games you guys do a lot of tile sharing - is this in an effort to win by midgame?

Precisely, if not ahead by midgame, unlikely to win. And if ahead, overlap is just an aesthetic annoyance.

3. what about all the civ specialist abilities? agriculture for fast growth? militaristic for quicker elite? religious - does the anarchy bonus really count in the long run of things? romans for their strong sword that I've used for early conquests... heck there was NEVER this much choice in civ2... in civ2 it was all about early defensive units then a few catapults etc and you were regarded the powerhouse

Each ability has its place, a lot depends upon Difficulty Level, Size and Type of World, and the Number of Opponents. I like Huge Worlds Emperor many Opponents, so Agricultural > Expansionists > Industrial are best for me.

4. being aggressive certainly helped in the old days, but nowadays with all these other methods of victory... heck I just can't bring myself to be nice to opponents I trade until the opponent is no longer useful, then I just whack them out of the game... wish I can bring myself to living in peace with neighbours - but then I find them walking over a nice resource that I wanted! and luxury is vital for playing emperor or higher in c3c

Quite, you must trick the AI into being the guilty party to keep your reputation.

5. defending cities - better to use bombardment - or just build more spears etc? I tested this one game with many catapult and artillery and they work surprisingly well. Miss the old days where catapult was just an attack of 6

I rarely use bombardment units to defend cities, I do not believe that it is cost effective. Value of bombardment is in attacking cities, and ships.

- dunno about you but I find pillaging just 'nasty' and I don't do it - often cos I regret it once I take the city

Worth pillaging to isolate cities or units and cut off resources, but generally not worthwhile to pillage irrigated squares because (i) either you are strong enough to capture the city and regret your pillaging or (ii) the AI is strong enough to kill many of your pillagers.

6. hate spaceship race - I turn it off - but I am intrigued by culture win - but I have never managed to get a city to 20000 culture - probably cos I got so bored of the game by midgame domination that I never bothered - and now with c3c it's even harder to rush wonders unlike c3 where I got a fair amount of leaders to rush them - and O BOY do I miss the old method of cranking up caravans to rush wonders

Culture wins are difficult. Best to have a religious scientific civilisation and pick a very good site for second or third city and then manufacture temple, library and wonders there only.

7. what do you regard as the must get wonders of the game? and the ToA - do you hold off education to max its benefit? Problem with this at emperor level you tend to slack in the science race if you do this. Sometimes I wonder if ToA is useless and one must rather go for GL or something else like pyramids for expansion? At high levels it's sometimes impossible to keep up with the AI 'cheating'. Any opinions are welcome.

Unless playing small worlds, multi-city impact wonders are best. The Pyramids (does not expire) is probably the best. Others are Sun Tzu, Sistine Chapel (Theology), JS Bach (Music Theory).

 

[Cuivienen]

1. early on it's all about expansion fast - and if you're lucky enough to start with a city with some shield tiles - do you mine this to produce a faster settler, or go for a irrigable tile somewhere else? in civ2 the AI choice was mining but it's different here... I notice a popular tactic is for the capital to produce many settlers if possible... but isn't your capital the best to produce wonders cos of the least corruption and therefore most shields generally?

In Civ3, the early-game (the Ancient Age) is all about expansion. If you really want to play well, never even try to build a Wonder in the Ancient Age. While some early Wonders are very strong (The Statue of Zeus, The Pyramids and The Great Library [only strong on Emperor+]), they are nothing compared to the 6+ Settlers you could have produced instead.

The Statue of Zeus and, occasionally the Great Library are the only exceptions to the no-Wonder rule. If you are hopelessly behind, The Great Library can bring you right back up into the thick of the tech race, and, since the AI usually leaves Literature for last, isn't likely to be lost to an AI. However, The Great Library is only really useful at high difficulty levels (Demigod+) where you may otherwise struggle to keep up. The Statue of Zeus, while only available to civs with Ivory, is the strongest Wonder in the AA and, since only civs with Ivory can build it, you may have only one or even no AI civs competing with you.

2. do you like building the second city sharing tiles with the mother city? this was a good choice in those days, but nowadays it tends to become a large hindrance in mid to late game when you wish you didn't rape your first two to three cities of tiles. I notice in high level games you guys do a lot of tile sharing - is this in an effort to win by midgame?

YES! ALWAYS overlap. By the time you can have a city larger than size 12, the benefits you've reaped from having more small cities far outweigh the negatives of having fewer large cities in the late game.

3. what about all the civ specialist abilities? agriculture for fast growth? militaristic for quicker elite? religious - does the anarchy bonus really count in the long run of things? romans for their strong sword that I've used for early conquests... heck there was NEVER this much choice in civ2... in civ2 it was all about early defensive units then a few catapults etc and you were regarded the powerhouse

Agricultural is THE growth trait. Very fast expansion.
Militaristic is, IMO, overrated, but nonetheless still quite good for conquering.
Religious civs do get a huge bonus from the reduced Anarchy, mostly because it means easier transitions late-game -- you can switch back and forth between Democracy and Communism for peace- and war-time.

In general, though, most of the traits balance out. Some civs (Dutch, Maya) have a slight advantage because of their strong traits and UU while others (Hittites, Zulu) suffer from weak UUs and poor traits. Overall, however, most civs are created equal and a variety in civs is the best way to play. (That said, the Byzantines are THE BEST!)

4. being aggressive certainly helped in the old days, but nowadays with all these other methods of victory... heck I just can't bring myself to be nice to opponents I trade until the opponent is no longer useful, then I just whack them out of the game... wish I can bring myself to living in peace with neighbours - but then I find them walking over a nice resource that I wanted! and luxury is vital for playing emperor or higher in c3c

Conquering opponents is still important. You can be a warmonger and still win a Diplomatic victory as long as the surviving civs like you. Conquering more lands boosts your income; even if the newly-conquered cities are completely corrupt, they'll still produce 1gpt and, with specialists, can be quite productive. If you have a huge Empire, switch to Communism even during peacetime. It works wonders!

5. defending cities - better to use bombardment - or just build more spears etc? I tested this one game with many catapult and artillery and they work surprisingly well. Miss the old days where catapult was just an attack of 6
- dunno about you but I find pillaging just 'nasty' and I don't do it - often cos I regret it once I take the city

The best defense is a good offense. Never build Spearmen. Leave your interior cities undefended. Attack anyone who looks hostile before they can attack you. Use catapults and other bombardment units strictly offensively, don't use them for defense. Just make sure you keep a unit over them to protect them.

6. hate spaceship race - I turn it off - but I am intrigued by culture win - but I have never managed to get a city to 20000 culture - probably cos I got so bored of the game by midgame domination that I never bothered - and now with c3c it's even harder to rush wonders unlike c3 where I got a fair amount of leaders to rush them - and O BOY do I miss the old method of cranking up caravans to rush wonders

Nothing to say here but that Spaceship is my favorite victory type

7. what do you regard as the must get wonders of the game? and the ToA - do you hold off education to max its benefit? Problem with this at emperor level you tend to slack in the science race if you do this. Sometimes I wonder if ToA is useless and one must rather go for GL or something else like pyramids for expansion? At high levels it's sometimes impossible to keep up with the AI 'cheating'. Any opinions are welcome.

There are no must-get Wonders in Civ3. That said, the strongest are (in no particular order):

The Pyramids
The Great Library
The Statue of Zeus
Sistine Chapel
Leonardo's Workshop
Adam Smith's Trading Company
The Theory of Evolution
Hoover Dam
The Internet

 

[sandmandh]

Guys thanks for all the replies they are really appreciated.

Those who played the game from day 1 would have followed various popular strategies - glad to see that c3c is no exception, it's actually unprecedented on the variety level. In civ1 a powerful method of early victory was the overpowered chariot and tons of tile-shared cities allowing you victory in the BC years. Civ2 was much better balanced but if you expanded fast with offensive units and stockpiled caravans for wonders and trade, you could win the game consistently early. Don't know if anyone ever played civ2 extended with future units like the eightball - now that was fun Now I see it's quite the paradigm shift where you forget wonders (aaargh why!) and build settlers and more settlers and some offense. Played this one game where the AI just overran me with a swarm of warriors by ?? BC - there were like 50 that whacked out some key cities to make me lose interest in that game. Also to the guy who loves space race - no offense intended - but I have played space race from day 1 and I like these new methods of victory.

Final question - anyone got a 20000 city culture victory (emperor+) without map editing? Do you restart until you find the perfect startiing location? What should this location look like? I would think this kind of contradicts the fact that you need settlers galore - but I may be wrong. Tips please

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

On 20k culture:
Just cruising to that victory on Deity for the 1st time. Did it several times on DG (that is, I retired when it was obviuos, like being the strongest and most advance Civ and at 10k one city culture).
On the highest levels, I would advise against the 2nd city/Palace prebuild strategy. You can never get more than one ancient wonder outside your capital. So, I use the capital as wonder city, and if appropriate move the Palace during Middle Ages - the FP generates more culture anyway. But most times, I use Armies for prebuilding later. Managed to get Colossus+Mausoleum+Great Wall+Great Library+Sistines on Deity (but lost that game later, since a Civ on the other continent stayed unchecked and won by overall culture).
One of the best wonders btw is the Heroic Epic at 4cpt, and the AI does never build it...

And yes, for that goal you need to restart to get a really good start.
Best Civs: Spain + Byzantium

How should the start look like? River, Coastal (natural for SEA Civs), couple Hills or Mountains, 2 Cows or equivalent, bit of bonus grass/forrest/plains.
Not needed: Luxuries
Not wanted: Flood Plains. Worse then one or two tundra/desert tiles.

Strategy:
Go Curragh - Warrior - Temple - Settler - Granary or Colossus, depending on Growth/tech situation (prefer Colossus 1st). After that, always build cultural wonders, and rush improvements. If you win the Philo race, pick Construction (unless you know CoL already, of course).
Start minimum run on Writing immediately, trade for Pottery and Bronce Working ASAP, and Iron Working soon (for the small chance of having Iron in city radius)

Best Wonders:
Colossus for the income.
MoM for the happiness helps immensely.
GLib for culture and function.
Sistine for culture.
Shakes for culture and growth (though you most like miss that on the higher levels).
Heroic Epic ASAP.

Of course, grab any other wonder you can get .

 

[sandmandh]

Another intriguing prospect is the possibility of getting iron works in your main production city. What's the chances of this happening? Does iron and coal come at pre-set fixed locations on the starting map, or does it allocate them randomly once iron working & railroad is invented? I've only ever built iron works twice and it's usually in some city too far away from the capital, and which defeats the purpose since some other city already has wonders. Any way to 'force' which city gets which resources? A map editor I guess??

 

[sandmandh]

Thanks Doc T for the advice, will be sure to try this soon! How you got all those wonders in Deity with all the AI cheating is beyond me... I will try it in emperor since the AI is good enough to be a challenge, not monarchy cos they are too weak so that it becomes pointless in midgame.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Note a Wonder city of course means a pretty small and weak empire otherwise, quite often less then 8 cities until you can jump on a weakened neighbor (late Medieval usually). That means you can trade for any resources fairly cheap - but of course, that also means you must trade for most resources

And, Diplomacy is really crudial: Any AI can kill you, and even more important, you need to make sure no AI runs away with it - you won't be able to stop a 40% land Civ with 500+cpt overall.

 

[smackster]

Now I see it's quite the paradigm shift where you forget wonders (aaargh why!) and build settlers and more settlers and some offense.

The main problem with the wonders on the higher levels is that the AI often beats you to them so its just a risky use of shields that should be used elsewhere. Capturing the wonder, or generating them through leaders is less risky, if you can generate the offense.

 

[kb2tvl]

1. early on it's all about expansion fast
Sandman

I agree on that statement. I try for 5 or 10 food per turn. under size 6, you need 20 food per citizen or 10 food with a granary. You, also, need 3 pop points to make a settler. so a 4 turn settler needs 5 food/turn average... Your capitol is the best location for producing settlers. Keep in mind that there are two ways to build a wonder. One is with shields and the other is capturing it! As a final note, your capitol is the only city that has the sheer number of turns to get an effective granary up and running AND have it effective.

2. do you like building the second city sharing tiles with the mother city? Sandman

For rep/demo gov'ts, size 13~16 cities is all you really want. Unhappiness gets to the point where you need 8 luxaries to fight a war and maintain such a large pop... Commy does not suffer from that problem and size 20 cities is perfectly fine and desirable.

So a player can approach this as having any city over lap with 3 tiles and add extra cities that are not developed but use the excess land while recieving low corruption. A player may place *keeper* cities and place *to be disbanned* cities. Before hospitals and after railroad, have these cities produce workers and build workers into your other cities to encourage growth.

3. what about all the civ specialist abilities? agriculture for fast growth? Sandman

The specialists and civ traits are different. For the traits, each civ is pretty well balanced. If a civ has a weak UU then it has stronger traits. Where a strong UU tends to give weaker traits. For c3c, the legion is a pike quality defensive unit with the attack of sword... Where commercial reduces corruption. Knowing how to exploit a civ's traits is more important than choosing one over the other. I can say that civ3/ptw gave indy and unfair adavantage. c3c has aggy as the dominant trait.

Particularly the Americans owned civ3/ptw due to indy/expr traits but air power was not a valuable UU type. For c3c, air power rules but indy trait was toned down.

4. being aggressive certainly helped in the old days, but nowadays with all these other methods of victory... heck I just can't bring myself to be nice to opponents I trade until the opponent is no longer useful, then I just whack them out of the game... wish I can bring myself to living in peace with neighbours - but then I find them walking over a nice resource that I wanted! and luxury is vital for playing emperor or higher in c3c
Sandman

Unsure of your question here. the game of the month is a good place to experiement with other victory types.

5. defending cities - better to use bombardment - or just build more spears etc?
Sandman

If you have a city under heavy attack, often. I would suggest cats. The best method is to have cats available to move from city to city for defense. Generally, two spear are sufficient for defense. However, two archers give a higher power rating than two spear... So, I may tend toward building archers instead of spear if I do not actually expect to defend at that city.

6. hate spaceship race - I turn it off - but I am intrigued by culture win - but I have never managed to get a city to 20000 culture - probably cos I got so bored of the game by midgame domination that I never bothered - and now with c3c it's even harder to rush wonders unlike c3 where I got a fair amount of leaders to rush them - and O BOY do I miss the old method of cranking up caravans to rush wonders
Sandman

Ha! caravans. pyramids or statue of liberty and theocacarcy here I come! Prebuild wonders with your palace and the turn before you could build the wonder, switch. Certain wonders can get built early which have high culature and temples or a library can get rushed. You can, also, eliminate your competition for a culatural vic by razing them!

7. what do you regard as the must get wonders of the game? and the ToA - do you hold off education to max its benefit? Problem with this at emperor level you tend to slack in the science race if you do this. Sometimes I wonder if ToA is useless and one must rather go for GL or something else like pyramids for expansion? At high levels it's sometimes impossible to keep up with the AI 'cheating'. Any opinions are welcome.
Sandman

There are no wonders that are must haves. Great library, SoZ, Tzu Szu, Leo's, Smiths and hoover are favorites. All of these save $$.

 

[jkp1187]

The best defense is a good offense. Never build Spearmen. Leave your interior cities undefended. Attack anyone who looks hostile before they can attack you. Use catapults and other bombardment units strictly offensively, don't use them for defense. Just make sure you keep a unit over them to protect

I offer the following caveat: The AI will often make peace/tribute/war decisions based on your current military strength -- and it includes the question of whether or not you have UNGARRISSONED CITIES (especially your capital), REGARDLESS of whether or not the AI could easily reach those cities. You may be forced into a war at an inopportune time against an aggressive AI civ. Something to keep in mind.

 

[sandmandh]

I've been trying a few different strategies recently (on standard pangaea) on emperor, with mixed results:
- the fast expansion (settler factory) to monarchy then warmongering to the max until stabilizing for the domination win, either with pop/land or culture. For me this has worked the best - also this is generally how I play the game
- trying the 0 science strategy with building gold then trading for tech until industrial, yes this works but I can't get myself to stay at peace for too long...
- trying now the 20k culture game - bombed out horribly the first try when they got GL ahead of me - aargh this is emperor, sometimes impossible to beat their production - but I am determined to get that 20k win soon

Someone answer my questions on the ironworks in post 10? Didn't see anything in the War Academy about this?

 

[jkp1187]

I've NEVER seen iron AND coal exist within the city box of a capital city. I think the AI may filter that out -- even if the map would have allowed it based on its seed, the AI suppresses one of those resources.

Nevertheless, this doesn't mean that you can't have both iron and coal in a good city location. Problem is that you won't know where the coal (and sometimes iron) is when you're founding your core cities. Most of the Iron Works I've been able to build in the past tended to be small mining towns in the hills someplace...although with Iron Works, Factory, and power plant, they tended to be solid production cities anyway.

 

[sandmandh]

Hmm the one game in c3 I had ironworks in a city about 8 tiles from the capital, turned out to produce 2 turn battleships. Best production city I ever had, from memory, was a civ2 city with 4 mountains (resources were limited to 4 those days) and it could produce a battleship every turn and a late wonder in around 5. I suppose conquests late game with engineers could be better but I've never got an ironworks in c3c yet. Happiness is your 20k city with ironworks

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Had it happen. Once. Ottomans, ptw. Sorry, no save left.

 

[jkp1187]

Doc:

Wow! Lucky you!

Just curious...did you build your 1st city on the first turn, or did you move around a little first?

I guess I'm just chronically unlucky with iron and coal. Hell, in the mulitiplayer game (Monarch level, 3 human, 5 AI,) I'm playing now, I was trapped on a moderately-sized island, and had to wait until I discovered Navigation before I could launch an attack on the Zulus -- on the OTHER SIDE OF THE WORLD -- just so I could get IRON and SALTPETER. (And if it hadn't been for Zeus and Knights Tempalar, I couldn't have won THAT war!)

Luckily, there was some coal on that island, so I'm good to go for the industrial age.