Questions/Rant about Loyalty

I went on a pretty aggressive conquering spree in my most recent game, wasn't even going for a Domination victory, there were just a lot of AIs getting on my nerves who needed to be put in their place. Yes it was challenging to keep hold of my new cities, but hardly impossible.

Some people are just having trouble adjusting to the new system, but that's no reason to change it, it works just fine if you know what you're doing. The thing is, you can't just play the game the way you used to, you do have to take loyalty into account when you do things like settle new cities or conquer enemy cities. Don't conquer or expand aggressively during a Dark Age, make clever use of your Governors, garrison cities, use the proper Policies, and have a big enough army to take back any cities that do decide to flip on you. If you can't manage that, lower the difficulty.

EDIT: Oh, and don't attack other civs who are in a Golden Age unless you're in one as well!
 
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IMO, the civ 6 R&F could be more interesting if the negative loyalty city can turn into something more than a 'free city'. It could be a city-state, and even a new civ or a re-born old civ with a different leader. Moreover, it could join another civ as its 'vassal state'. Of course, some people here might have seen these events and stories in Civ 4 games. As for now, a 'free city' in the R&F Xpansion seems no more than a barbarian city in another guise before it joins the neighboring civ.
 
I think it would be a great improvement if CULTURE and RELIGION played a part in the loyalty system.

Yes!!!

Re: Culture: wonders should provide loyalty. (Don't people feel patriotic towards the Statue of Liberty, the Eiffel Tower or the Great Pyramids?)

Re: Religion: there really should've been a belief that generates loyalty from converted cities. Or there should be a generic mechanism. (Think of how Catholic cities in the UK may have shown loyalty to foreign Catholic nations? E.g: Spain).

So lazy, Firaxis. :p
 
When I heard about the loyalty system, I was very happy. I loved how culture worked in civ4, beeing able to flip cities, needing to defend against it. It was fun, but they removed it in civ5.

Loyalty sounded that it was going to do just that. But in my experience, not only did it fail, but it failed in both oposite ways.

You're looking at it in the wrong way, but understandably since it looks very similar to Civ IV flipping and Firaxis didn't do a very good job of explaining the intended game function.

Loyalty sits in an odd spot where it's a replacement for something you wouldn't immediately associate it with: corruption/city maintenance. In other words, its game function is primarily to force you to plan and pace expansion. This is so widely misunderstood that most of the complaints about it boil down to some variant of "it makes it difficult to expand indefinitely" - which is the entire point.

It's inspired that they took a fun but essentially cosmetic mechanic from Civ IV - city-flipping - and used it to add an expansion constraint missing in Civ VI's base form, but it's not a natural association to draw.

I'd then waited until I was able to build shakas special unit to start attacking. I captured a frontier city. It was closer to their cities than mines, but not by much, all my cities were pretty close. As soon as I captured it it told me that it would flip because of loyalty. So I:
  • Put a governor on it
  • Adopted the civic that gives loyalty with garrisoned units
  • Put the governor with the loyalty bonus to friendly nearby cities on a city nearby
With all this, the city still said it was going to flip. Ok, IMO, 1 or 2 of this steps should have been more than enough, I was quite surprised that even the 3 actions didnt fix the loyalty problem on a frontier city (not another continent, not far inside their territory, not far from my cities... nothing, just the obvious first city to capture)

I think there's a conquest malus to loyalty - you start at 50 rather than 100 with a conquered city, which makes it prone to flipping. Step 1 is fine but is only +8, while you'll often see a newly-conquered city with a -13 or more modifier. The civic only gives +2. The governor has to arrive to use her loyalty boost (other than the standard +8 for having a governor), which takes 5 turns, so that may not have come into play.

You also usually need to have the amenity bonus (+3 or +6), but the most important thing is population pressure and this is dictated largely by which age you're in compared with the nearest civ. Expanding militarily in a Dark Age is practically impossible whatever buffs you have. This is deliberate to showcase the era system.

So I did one more thing, I captured the closest enemy city quick. And still, 3 turns after that, the city still flipped.
Ok, here I stopped playing. It's not hard, its just a bullfeathers feature.

While you'll get some reinforcement from nearby conquests, you're usually better off just razing any cities close enough to exert pressure on your new city.

So, I did 4 (FOUR!) things to stop a captured city from flipping. A city that was almost as close to my cities than to the enemy ones. And that was still not enough?? So what the hell else was tehre to do?

Ensure you're in a Golden Age when you attack and that your opponent isn't - and preferably is in a Dark Age.

I think it would be a great improvement if CULTURE and RELIGION played a part in the loyalty system.

They evidently want loyalty to work differently from culture-flipping in Civ IV. It would be welcome for religion to play a role - it would be easy to incorporate and would increase the presently marginal relevance of religion in most games. Unfortunately it would probably be overly tedious in practice due to the need to constantly reconvert your cities following AI apostle spam.

I agree I am not a fan of the Free City mechanic, as they effectively just function as glorified barbarians. Definitely room for improvement there.

I'm happy enough having barbarian cities in the landscape but I agree the implementation of the free city system isn't great.
 
Yes!!!

Re: Culture: wonders should provide loyalty. (Don't people feel patriotic towards the Statue of Liberty, the Eiffel Tower or the Great Pyramids?)

Re: Religion: there really should've been a belief that generates loyalty from converted cities. Or there should be a generic mechanism. (Think of how Catholic cities in the UK may have shown loyalty to foreign Catholic nations? E.g: Spain).

So lazy, Firaxis. :p

It'd be nice, and maybe they'll add more influences in later; but these things could throw it out of balance too.
 
Yes!!!

Re: Culture: wonders should provide loyalty. (Don't people feel patriotic towards the Statue of Liberty, the Eiffel Tower or the Great Pyramids?)

That could easily go both ways though - I would imagine a lot of patriotic Americans would use the Statue of Liberty as a symbol of their resistance against foreign occupiers, should something like the Red Dawn scenario ever actually come to pass.
 
I like the loyalty concept, it gives a new parameter to manage. If you have to use civics to help control it, then the cost is not using civics for something else.
Another tactic to help manage a city that is threatening to flip, is to go for an alliance with one of the neighbouring civs and choose cultural alliance. This removes the negative effects that civ has on your loyalty. You might have a city being effected by more than one civ, so being culturally allied with one and either war/peace with the other, is usually enough to deal with loyalty issues.
Just check where the greater loyalty pressure is coming from in the loyalty view.

for colonies, take the "colonial offices" civic which boosts loyalty and growth, then try settle more new cities nearby to create your own loyalty pressure.
level up at least one governor & place in your new city and take "communications office" giving +1 loyalty per level
take "Praetorium" which gives your gov +2 loyalty
take "Limitanei" and garrison a unit there for +2 loyalty

creating a colony in a far away continent should be challenging and risky, as it was for European colonialists. These measures might not solve the problem but buy you time to boost population and assert yourself on the new land.
You might need a few military units close by so if it does rebel (like colonies did) you can retake it and continue growing the population.

most important is not to create a 1 population colony close to a rival 20 pop city and expect it to be easy...
 
That could easily go both ways though - I would imagine a lot of patriotic Americans would use the Statue of Liberty as a symbol of their resistance against foreign occupiers, should something like the Red Dawn scenario ever actually come to pass.
The Statue of Liberty was, after all, a gift celebrating American independence from their first ally.
 
Loyalty certainly exists. I discovered the key in my Scotland game. Amenities. I didn't realize how big an impact they had. I mostly ignored amenities until I hit -2, but my Scotland game helped me realize how powerful amenities are. I was flipping cities left and right. Golden age with -1 amenity and you might flip one city, but if all your cities are ecstatic, you will keep flipping.
 
If you capture a city and put a governor, and make that city have at least 1 happiness, fix its monument, then the city is at most -8 loyalty, which takes at least 7 turns to flip.

I never experienced a situation when I cannot take all nearby cities in 7 turns. AI defense is so weak and player production is enhanced in Rise and Fall.

A knight can move 28 tiles in 7 turns, even a ram can move 14 tiles. There are terrains but there're roads and generals, you can use enemy roads in Civ6, so 1 move=1 tile is reasonable.

Given that cities are only influenced by other cities within 9 tiles, I see no point how captured cities can flip.
 
Loyalty certainly exists. I discovered the key in my Scotland game. Amenities. I didn't realize how big an impact they had. I mostly ignored amenities until I hit -2, but my Scotland game helped me realize how powerful amenities are. I was flipping cities left and right. Golden age with -1 amenity and you might flip one city, but if all your cities are ecstatic, you will keep flipping.

I think I will play Scotland quite a bit as I like keeping my cities ecstatic for the standard bonuses even without Scotland's extra bonuses! Given I'm not likely to change that much no matter who I play, I may as well play a Civ who gets the best out of my single mindedness lol
 
If you capture a city and put a governor, and make that city have at least 1 happiness, fix its monument, then the city is at most -8 loyalty, which takes at least 7 turns to flip.

I never experienced a situation when I cannot take all nearby cities in 7 turns. AI defense is so weak and player production is enhanced in Rise and Fall.

A knight can move 28 tiles in 7 turns, even a ram can move 14 tiles. There are terrains but there're roads and generals, you can use enemy roads in Civ6, so 1 move=1 tile is reasonable.

Given that cities are only influenced by other cities within 9 tiles, I see no point how captured cities can flip.
 
I agree I am not a fan of the Free City mechanic, as they effectively just function as glorified barbarians. Definitely room for improvement there.

The devs indicated in one of the deep dives that they came up with free cities because they didn't like the way things played out when cities went directly from one civ to another. That indicates that this mechanism was introduced at least part way, and likely deep into, the playtesting phase. So it's not surprising that it's rough around the edges.

I think the issue is how to improve it? Maybe make free city status last only for a set number of turns, after which there's a decision tree somewhat along these lines:
  • if sufficiently influenced by a neighbouring civ, they offer to join that civ
  • if a former city state, they regain that status
  • if a city from a conquered civ, they revive that civ
  • if none of the above, then another chance they may join a neighbouring civ, this time at a lower threshold of required influence
  • if still none of these, then they take on a new, non-affiliated city state status, with some generic bonuses that are weaker than "normal" city states
 
The devs indicated in one of the deep dives that they came up with free cities because they didn't like the way things played out when cities went directly from one civ to another.

I have to agree with this. It would be sucky to lose your newly conquered city to the AI you are attacking just because you weren't fast enough in stabilizing the situation. Free cities aren't perfect, but they are better than the alternative (no one wants Civ3 style flipping). I am generally okay with them. My first couple games I kept seeing them spawn builders, but I haven't seen that lately.
 
if a former city state, they regain that status

Oh man of all the things you said this is the one I want to see the most. Makes no sense to me that a former City State wouldn't regain its City State status given that it is once again, you know, a city state. Then again, it's really nice to be able to send in my army and "liberate" them for reduction in warmonger penalty, but that does feel kind of exploity (doesn't stop me from doing it though, warmonger penalties get nasty in the later game).
 
Yeah often there are some city states I would like to bring back into the game, but I can't since they became free states.
 
Yeah often there are some city states I would like to bring back into the game, but I can't since they became free states.

Don't you have the option to liberate to founder when you capture a free city? Certainly you would if it had flipped to someone else and you took it from them.

Though even if not that's not really any different from being unable to bring a CS back because it was razed - it's part of the game that they can be eliminated for good.
 
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