Yeah you get avote right after building it and then every 11 turns iirc. No way to just trigger one at will.
Quick Answers / 'Newbie' Questions
- Thread starter Turner
- Start date
cheeseburger
Chieftain
should i mine or irrigate plains and regular grasslands?
im thinking i should mine grassland to get at least one shield, and to irrigate plains to get a second food.
im thinking i should mine grassland to get at least one shield, and to irrigate plains to get a second food.
As a rule of thumb mine green and irrigate brown. Or usually (somewhere between "at least more often than not" and "very often") mine green and irrigate brown. I doubt I can emphasize the fuzzy quantifiers enough here. Plenty of noteworthy exceptions can get pointed out for skilled play, such as when a city hits sizes 12 and has a few extra food in the box, it often works out well to forest green and mine brown. Irrigating green for a worker pump also comes as another noteworthy exception. Or irrigating all tiles when you have hospitals, you don't want need much production, and you want to do as much research as possible as fast as you can. Or in a 100k game where you want to water everything. The rule "usually mine green and irrigate brown" appears to only work as usually advisable, since it seems that most games get played for conquest or domination, don't have hospitals or hospitals come into play for a relatively short period of time, and most of the time in such games you want both growth and production.
DrumStudent I took a peek at the save:
First I see no reason to not peddle HBR and get the Americans gold and Mason to Vikes. Now you have all the cash. Second you have 18 uints and are allowed 28, so get more up. They should be workers too, as many as soon as you can do it.
Three workers now come on, that is just nuts. You have 5 towns and 2 captured. Yes you have some slaves, but at least 8 workers would makes more sense. Actually it is worse in that the spacing is so wide, you have more tiles to deal with.
This is warlord, so there is no reason to be making the GLB. You are not going to learn anything from it, unless you are very slow. You will have to keep researching as they are very very slow, or else sit around waiting on them.
If you must build it, at least get the citizen back to work. Have you persued my Regent article. I think I explained that you want to get up a temple in the wonder town, so you can have more pop working. You want to get it to size 12, if you can.
Here you have 3 citizens as jokers. Not growing and size 10. As you do not have the temple, you need to go to 20% lux and put two back to work. It is a shame you have no workes to have the capitol up to snuff. You could be getting more shields with a mine on the mountain or even a grass tile. You still save 2 turns.
You have 6 irrigated tiles in the capitol, but are in despotism, so you get no extra food. Three of those tlies are not even being worked and that is after I put two more back on the job.
Carthage I now can put the joker back to work and grow again, gaining 2 bpt. Could get 3 with beakerhead, but no growth. We also shaved a turn off of Philo.
I have no idea why you would put Allegheny out in the desert so far from home. Yes you get the extra food for AG, but that could have waited. You have that nice lake with no town near it?
I know people love their big fat spacing and go CxxxxC, but it will hardly be effective. With that start location and AG trait, I would be filling a lot more tiles with more towns and be cranking out setlters and workers. The game would never see Sanitation to use all those empty tiles you now have.
What is the need for a temple in Cattaraugus? It is Warlord, the town will is size 1 and is not going to flip. You do not need to expand borders, just keep poping out workers there. I think I would drop a town on the Spices to cut off any access to anyone on the other side.
Switch Allegheny to a worker and forget the temple.
Grand River switch to a settler, I would not have put up a lib there for now. It is making 1 beaker. The problem you have is you are hard pressed to make troops or settlers as your two top towns are making wonders.
Why did you make a granary by hand in Niag? It is a +2 food and you had a place with two cows? That slowed you down a bunch.
First I see no reason to not peddle HBR and get the Americans gold and Mason to Vikes. Now you have all the cash. Second you have 18 uints and are allowed 28, so get more up. They should be workers too, as many as soon as you can do it.
Three workers now come on, that is just nuts. You have 5 towns and 2 captured. Yes you have some slaves, but at least 8 workers would makes more sense. Actually it is worse in that the spacing is so wide, you have more tiles to deal with.
This is warlord, so there is no reason to be making the GLB. You are not going to learn anything from it, unless you are very slow. You will have to keep researching as they are very very slow, or else sit around waiting on them.
If you must build it, at least get the citizen back to work. Have you persued my Regent article. I think I explained that you want to get up a temple in the wonder town, so you can have more pop working. You want to get it to size 12, if you can.
Here you have 3 citizens as jokers. Not growing and size 10. As you do not have the temple, you need to go to 20% lux and put two back to work. It is a shame you have no workes to have the capitol up to snuff. You could be getting more shields with a mine on the mountain or even a grass tile. You still save 2 turns.
You have 6 irrigated tiles in the capitol, but are in despotism, so you get no extra food. Three of those tlies are not even being worked and that is after I put two more back on the job.
Carthage I now can put the joker back to work and grow again, gaining 2 bpt. Could get 3 with beakerhead, but no growth. We also shaved a turn off of Philo.
I have no idea why you would put Allegheny out in the desert so far from home. Yes you get the extra food for AG, but that could have waited. You have that nice lake with no town near it?
I know people love their big fat spacing and go CxxxxC, but it will hardly be effective. With that start location and AG trait, I would be filling a lot more tiles with more towns and be cranking out setlters and workers. The game would never see Sanitation to use all those empty tiles you now have.
What is the need for a temple in Cattaraugus? It is Warlord, the town will is size 1 and is not going to flip. You do not need to expand borders, just keep poping out workers there. I think I would drop a town on the Spices to cut off any access to anyone on the other side.
Switch Allegheny to a worker and forget the temple.
Grand River switch to a settler, I would not have put up a lib there for now. It is making 1 beaker. The problem you have is you are hard pressed to make troops or settlers as your two top towns are making wonders.
Why did you make a granary by hand in Niag? It is a +2 food and you had a place with two cows? That slowed you down a bunch.
ChaosArbiter
King
Another reason to mine green, at least early on, is that while you're in Despotism, you won't get any advantage from Irrigating Grasslands due to the penalty, while you will get a Food bonus from Irrigating Plains (before food bonuses).
Verarde
Pondering Wearing A Hat
Whoa! I had no idea my game was that bad! That's why I put it up. Thanks!
So, lessons learned:
1) have lots of workers. How many should I have? 2 per town?
2) Spacing. Don't go CxxxxC. I am guessing C=city and x=tile. What do you go vmxa? CxxC or CxxxC?
3) I agree on the GLiB. Waste of my time. Now if it was a later difficulty, should I go for it? What other wonders should I generally build?
4) Use the lux slider. Good tip. Never really used that before. I see how that would help.
5) Should I be placing mines pretty much everywhere? Or does it depend on the location?
6) On the heels of that, don't automate workers! Micromanaging may take longer, but human makes better decisions than the AI.
7) Focus on building in the early game. Don't go for the quick conquest, unless they are easy. For example, Carthage. Was it a good call? They seemed too close and would have hampered expansion right?
8) Don't always need temples. Focus on workers, then infrastructure?
9) Have best towns be building up my army, and other towns settlers and workers?
10) When I have lots of food in a city, I don't need a granary.
Could you look over this and make sure these assumptions are all correct?
"DrumStudent"
"1) have lots of workers. How many should I have? 2 per town?"
1 is decent, especially if you are Ind. 1.5 is solid either way. It is not so easy to get that right away, but we want to work towards it. 2 is more than I will muster, but I will take it.
"2) Spacing. Don't go CxxxxC. I am guessing C=city and x=tile. What do you go vmxa? CxxC or CxxxC?"
Much tricker topic. At lower levels you could do the wide spacing, but it needs more worker turns, lots of dead tiles for most of the game. How about CxxxC? Now you have plenty of tiles, fewer dead ones and can grow past size 12, if you want to do that.
I use CxxC, but it is not required.
"3) I agree on the GLiB. Waste of my time. Now if it was a later difficulty, should I go for it? What other wonders should I generally build?"
At warlord, you can build those wonders, just do not rush into them and get that wonder town up to speed. The AI is not going to beat you to them very often.
If that town had 12 pop with a temple and mines, it would be able to make the GLB much faster and do it at a time, when you have soem towns that can pick up the task of settlers/wokers/units.
"5) Should I be placing mines pretty much everywhere? Or does it depend on the location?"
Mostly mine green and water brown. Hold off on hills and mountains, till you have the workers to spare or the tile is needed for a reason. Resource, lux shields.
Some times you need to temp irrigate a green tile to get water to a town, that will happen. Later, once out of despotism, you may need to irrigate to get the town to grow. IOW not going to be too locked in.
"7) Focus on building in the early game. Don't go for the quick conquest, unless they are easy. For example, Carthage. Was it a good call? They seemed too close and would have hampered expansion right?"
This is another topic that is not easy. There are cost and rewards to most actions. Evaluating the cost and the rewards takes some experience as things vary. Many things, setting goals, opponents.
In the main, the higher the level the more I would strike, if I see a good spot. That is due to the bonus. At Warlord, you can out produce them, as you go up it take more for you to do that.
"8) Don't always need temples. Focus on workers, then infrastructure?"
Workers are like a savings account. The sooner you get the money in it, the longer it is there and the more time it has to earn interest. That early worker will work on a lot more tiles that the one you make in 1250AD.
Structures I determine on cost benefit basis. At times the cost is not important, say a war breaks out and two archers are heading my way. I want that wall, regardless of the cost. I want the unit regardless of the cost.
Structures are required in some times, but not always at the tme you learn to build them. A lib for example. Size 2, makes 1 beaker, why start an 80 turn lib right now? Why not get the town up to size 4 or more, get soem tiles improved and then start the lib.
"10) When I have lots of food in a city, I don't need a granary."
If you are not on a map with lots of land and few civs, then 1 or 2 towns with a granary is going to be fine. First I need a town with a food bonus, not much use in a
+1 or even +2 food town that is not going to be more than +2 in the AA.
Granary take lots of shields at a time when you tend to have few in a given town. I want to be sure I can get value for them.
These are all just one perspective and your mileage may vary.
"1) have lots of workers. How many should I have? 2 per town?"
1 is decent, especially if you are Ind. 1.5 is solid either way. It is not so easy to get that right away, but we want to work towards it. 2 is more than I will muster, but I will take it.
"2) Spacing. Don't go CxxxxC. I am guessing C=city and x=tile. What do you go vmxa? CxxC or CxxxC?"
Much tricker topic. At lower levels you could do the wide spacing, but it needs more worker turns, lots of dead tiles for most of the game. How about CxxxC? Now you have plenty of tiles, fewer dead ones and can grow past size 12, if you want to do that.
I use CxxC, but it is not required.
"3) I agree on the GLiB. Waste of my time. Now if it was a later difficulty, should I go for it? What other wonders should I generally build?"
At warlord, you can build those wonders, just do not rush into them and get that wonder town up to speed. The AI is not going to beat you to them very often.
If that town had 12 pop with a temple and mines, it would be able to make the GLB much faster and do it at a time, when you have soem towns that can pick up the task of settlers/wokers/units.
"5) Should I be placing mines pretty much everywhere? Or does it depend on the location?"
Mostly mine green and water brown. Hold off on hills and mountains, till you have the workers to spare or the tile is needed for a reason. Resource, lux shields.
Some times you need to temp irrigate a green tile to get water to a town, that will happen. Later, once out of despotism, you may need to irrigate to get the town to grow. IOW not going to be too locked in.
"7) Focus on building in the early game. Don't go for the quick conquest, unless they are easy. For example, Carthage. Was it a good call? They seemed too close and would have hampered expansion right?"
This is another topic that is not easy. There are cost and rewards to most actions. Evaluating the cost and the rewards takes some experience as things vary. Many things, setting goals, opponents.
In the main, the higher the level the more I would strike, if I see a good spot. That is due to the bonus. At Warlord, you can out produce them, as you go up it take more for you to do that.
"8) Don't always need temples. Focus on workers, then infrastructure?"
Workers are like a savings account. The sooner you get the money in it, the longer it is there and the more time it has to earn interest. That early worker will work on a lot more tiles that the one you make in 1250AD.
Structures I determine on cost benefit basis. At times the cost is not important, say a war breaks out and two archers are heading my way. I want that wall, regardless of the cost. I want the unit regardless of the cost.
Structures are required in some times, but not always at the tme you learn to build them. A lib for example. Size 2, makes 1 beaker, why start an 80 turn lib right now? Why not get the town up to size 4 or more, get soem tiles improved and then start the lib.
"10) When I have lots of food in a city, I don't need a granary."
If you are not on a map with lots of land and few civs, then 1 or 2 towns with a granary is going to be fine. First I need a town with a food bonus, not much use in a
+1 or even +2 food town that is not going to be more than +2 in the AA.
Granary take lots of shields at a time when you tend to have few in a given town. I want to be sure I can get value for them.
These are all just one perspective and your mileage may vary.
Verarde
Pondering Wearing A Hat
Wow! Thanks a lot! This will definitely help me.
ChaosArbiter
King
I'm not as confident as vmxa or Aabraxan (or Spoonwood or at least half a dozen other regulars here), but ...
2-2.5. You can get away with fewer *if* you're Industrious, but you should always want at least two Workers for each city.
CxxxC is the normal city distribution; CxxC is usually, IIRC, used only for Specialist Farms where the number of worked tiles is going to be low. CxxxC gives a large number of workable tiles for each city while minimizing wasted tiles (CxxxxC, which gives each city its own 'Fat X' of tiles with no overlap, gives more tiles at the *end* of the game, when you have access to Metropolis-level cities, but size 12 is the largest you'll normally get for most of the game).
While it depends on the level which Wonders are more preferred, no Wonder is essential. When I give advice, I say to never plan on building any Wonder before Adam Smith's (I play on Regent), and never expect to get any particular Wonder. There is an article on "Wonder Addiction" somewhere that I read a long time ago which is very good.
As the alongside discussion shows, the general rule of thumb is to Mine Green and Irrigate Brown, but it really does depend on location - a few Grasslands and many Hills/Mountains would lend itself to watering the Green, for example, to make use of more rough terrain.
As far as I remember, the biggest reason people say to not go to war in the AA (until you've finished peaceful expansion, at least) is that it can stunt your growth (physically, since you have to build soldiers instead of Settlers, economically, since you have to pay for more units, and technologically). Not having looked at the save, I feel that your invasion of Carthage was probably a good idea.
Quote:
5) Should I be placing mines pretty much everywhere? Or does it depend on the location?
"As the alongside discussion shows, the general rule of thumb is to Mine Green and Irrigate Brown, but it really does depend on location - a few Grasslands and many Hills/Mountains would lend itself to watering the Green, for example, to make use of more rough terrain."
Remember irrigation of green will not add any food during Despotism, so it is normally not done until your are close to revolt to some other gov. Exceptions there are, getting water to the next town for one.
I tend to not come back to irrigate core towns, till rails, if then. Some towns may need irrigation, before then to get to size 12 though.
5) Should I be placing mines pretty much everywhere? Or does it depend on the location?
"As the alongside discussion shows, the general rule of thumb is to Mine Green and Irrigate Brown, but it really does depend on location - a few Grasslands and many Hills/Mountains would lend itself to watering the Green, for example, to make use of more rough terrain."
Remember irrigation of green will not add any food during Despotism, so it is normally not done until your are close to revolt to some other gov. Exceptions there are, getting water to the next town for one.
I tend to not come back to irrigate core towns, till rails, if then. Some towns may need irrigation, before then to get to size 12 though.
The Professor
Emperor
At size 13. Many choose to keep their cities at smaller sizes, and not build hospitals, because pollution is much less of a headache if you keep it at size 12.
I suspect that pollution is only a part of it. I would add that you have to research an optional tech at a time when you have many important techs to learn. Then you have to spent a ton of shields to make the hospital.
Often by the time you learn Sanitation and build a hospital and got some growth form it, the game is over or at least in the bag.
Often by the time you learn Sanitation and build a hospital and got some growth form it, the game is over or at least in the bag.
darski
Regent in Training
Garrison only = fortified?
I'm just wondering about this. I don't seem to get credit for MP's until they fortify on the turn after they get to a city... is it the just getting there rather than fortifying that matters in this?
Just curious - it has come up a couple of times with rioting
I'm just wondering about this. I don't seem to get credit for MP's until they fortify on the turn after they get to a city... is it the just getting there rather than fortifying that matters in this?
Just curious - it has come up a couple of times with rioting
I don't think they need to be fortified. I know that I often move a unit out 1 tile and then check the town to see, if it got unhappy. If it did, I slip it back, unless it is critical it do something.
If the town is already rioting, then it will not stop, till the next turn.
If the town is already rioting, then it will not stop, till the next turn.
I've often researched Sanitation in upper-level space-games and then watered everything for more scientists. I haven't figured out any way to determine if this actually pays off though. Nor determined how often it would pay off instead of not paying off.
Verarde
Pondering Wearing A Hat
When you say irrigate brown, what do you mean? Is that plains?
ChaosArbiter
King
Yes; Green is Grasslands, Brown is Plains.
