Raging Barbarians and Authority

[ElliotS]

Raging barbarians changes the game in some fun and interesting ways, but I think it makes authority overpowered so I never use it to avoid an unfair advantage.

@Gazebo is it possible to reduce authority's bonus vs barbarians and culture gain from barbarians when the option is ticked?

If it is what values does everyone think are fair?

 

[CppMaster]

Raging barbarians changes the game in some fun and interesting ways, but I think it makes authority overpowered so I never use it to avoid an unfair advantage.

@Gazebo is it possible to reduce authority's bonus vs barbarians and culture gain from barbarians when the option is ticked?

If it is what values does everyone think are fair?

Half of it. It would still be easier to fight them with Authority.

 

[grmagne]

I always play Raging Barbarians and I try to make them a bit tougher by bumping up their camp healing from 10 to 20. If there are other ways to make them stronger through simple variable changes, feel free to suggest

The Authority civs don't do any better than the Progress or Tradition in my games. Everyone thinks Authority will overperform with Raging Barbarians but I don't see it. I think the reason Tradition & Progress perform better than expected is because with zero barbarians the map fills up much faster with everyone prioritizing settlers and claiming land. So you come into conflict with Authority civs much faster. With Raging Barbarians everyone has to spend the Ancient area battling barbs for survival and there's fewer Civ vs. Civ conflicts (unless the map is very crowded, but then there's no barbs anyway). By the time non-warmonger civs come into contact with the warmongers they've had more time to prepare and all their units should have 45 XP from the barbarian wars.

Since "Chill" players want easier barbarians, and "Raging" players seem to be OK with fighting through the swarms in Ancient, I would propose this:

Raging: +5 heal per turn outside of camp
Standard: no change
Chill: +10% combat bonus vs. barbs for all players

The settings I usually use are:

Tectonic Map, Large Map sometimes Standard
13 civs (or 11 on Standard)
Emperor/Epic, sometimes Emperor/Standard seed
Raging Barbarians with 20 heal per turn in camp

 

[ElliotS]

I always play Raging Barbarians and I try to make them a bit tougher by bumping up their camp healing from 10 to 20. If there are other ways to make them stronger through simple variable changes, feel free to suggest

The Authority civs don't do any better than the Progress or Tradition in my games. Everyone thinks Authority will overperform with Raging Barbarians but I don't see it. I think the reason Tradition & Progress perform better than expected is because with zero barbarians the map fills up much faster with everyone prioritizing settlers and claiming land. So you come into conflict with Authority civs much faster. With Raging Barbarians everyone has to spend the Ancient area battling barbs for survival and there's fewer Civ vs. Civ conflicts (unless the map is very crowded, but then there's no barbs anyway). By the time non-warmonger civs come into contact with the warmongers they've had more time to prepare and all their units should have 45 XP from the barbarian wars.

Since "Chill" players want easier barbarians, and "Raging" players seem to be OK with fighting through the swarms in Ancient, I would propose this:

Raging: +5 heal per turn outside of camp
Standard: no change
Chill: +10% combat bonus vs. barbs for all players

The settings I usually use are:

Tectonic Map, Large Map sometimes Standard
13 civs (or 11 on Standard)
Emperor/Epic, sometimes Emperor/Standard seed
Raging Barbarians with 20 heal per turn in camp

That's really interesting. Actually @Gazebo have you ever tested with raging barbarians? I'd love to hear some stats on it.

 

[Owlbebach]

The Authority civs don't do any better than the Progress or Tradition in my games. Everyone thinks Authority will overperform with Raging Barbarians but I don't see it.

This might be due to the fact that AI doesn't know how to use this type of advantage. I am very much sure that Authority will get huge advantage if the game is with Raging Barbs IF you do this right

 

[pineappledan]

We have generally agreed that using non-standard game settings, with the exception of game speed and difficulty, do not merit special balance adjustments.

Before a discussion of what should be done for balance while playing 'Raging Barbarians', I think a case needs to be made for why 'Raging Barbarians' should not be treated the same as 'Pangaea', or 'Highlands', 'Renaissance Starting Era', or 'No CS'

As of right now, I don't see much reason to give Raging/Chill Barbarians any special treatment.

 

[CppMaster]

We have generally agreed that using non-standard game settings, with the exception of game speed and difficulty, do not merit special balance adjustments.

Before a discussion of what should be done for balance while playing 'Raging Barbarians', I think a case needs to be made for why 'Raging Barbarians' should not be treated the same as 'Pangaea', or 'Highlands', 'Renaissance Starting Era', or 'No CS'

As of right now, I don't see much reason to give Raging/Chill Barbarians any special treatment.

The reason is that it would be way easier to balance raging/chilling barbarians than these other settings. If it's just modified culture from killing barbs then why not?
Question on the other hand for you: Why all settings should be treated the same?

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I never play on raging barbarians but I'm against such changes. If that's done, what should be done about Elizabeth/Statecraft/some policies and buildings if Spying is out? What about some civs if religion is removed? What if someone starts the game at a later era so early uniques lose power? What about Authority if barbies are turned off completely or chilled out?

 

[ElliotS]

I never play on raging barbarians but I'm against such changes. If that's done, what should be done about Elizabeth/Statecraft/some policies and buildings if Spying is out? What about some civs if religion is removed? What if someone starts the game at a later era so early uniques lose power? What about Authority if barbies are turned off completely or chilled out?

Some of those are minor and/or complex. If we could make authority balanced without much efforts in fairly popular settings be should. (No barbs is also pretty popular and should probably give authority flat +2 culture in capital like tradition, so it's not horrendous.)

I get that there's the possibility of project scope creep, but the way I see it these are self-contained and now that policy branches are locked not a development problem. If we can improve people's games with a tiny amount of code we probably should.

I mean let's agree that editing specific civs is too far, but a short and easy addition to code seems reasonable.

 

[CppMaster]

I never play on raging barbarians but I'm against such changes. If that's done, what should be done about Elizabeth/Statecraft/some policies and buildings if Spying is out? What about some civs if religion is removed? What if someone starts the game at a later era so early uniques lose power? What about Authority if barbies are turned off completely or chilled out?

I just have answered that. If sth is too difficult to balance then it doesn't need to be necessarily. But if it's easy then why not?

 

[pineappledan]

I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments, but I think that G has been fairly clear that non-standard game configurations, and iterating game rules for them is something that is not worth the effort.

Furthermore, the people who play with Raging Barbarians may be doing so specifically because it slants towards certain playstyles. I think a change to policies/balance like this is just as likely to piss some players off as it is to please others.

EDIT: Further-furthermore, changing raging barbarians from vanilla, where it just increases the spawn rate, to increased spawn rate/special barb promotions/altered policies/altered barb kill yields reduces accessibility. These are precisely the kind of changes which befuddle and infuriate new VP players.

I've had my own nitpicks on civ and building balance dismissed as modmod territory enough times that I've become a bit of an authority on this argument. This is modmod territory.

Question on the other hand for you: Why all settings should be treated the same?

Because consistency = polish.

But if it's easy then why not?

If it's easy then make a modmod.

 

[ElliotS]

Furthermore, the people who play with Raging Barbarians may be doing so specifically because it slants towards certain playstyles. I think a change to policies/balance like this is just as likely to piss some players off as it is to please others.

I've had enough of my own nitpicks on civ and building balance dismissed as modmod territory a few too many times, so I've become a bit of . This is modmod territory.

That's a good point and fair.

 

[CppMaster]

Because consistency = polish.

It could still be consistent with regard to how much effort it requires to balance it. Hence, the easier solution, the more likely to be done.

If it's easy then make a modmod

Are you contradicting that culture scale with raging barbarians is easier to be done than balancing other settings like 'Pangaea', or 'Highlands', 'Renaissance Starting Era', or 'No CS'?

I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments, but I think that G has been fairly clear that non-standard game configurations, and iterating game rules for them is something that is not worth the effort.

Furthermore, the people who play with Raging Barbarians may be doing so specifically because it slants towards certain playstyles. I think a change to policies/balance like this is just as likely to piss some players off as it is to please others.

EDIT: Further-furthermore, changing raging barbarians from vanilla, where it just increases the spawn rate, to increased spawn rate/special barb promotions/altered policies/altered barb kill yields reduces accessibility. These are precisely the kind of changes which befuddle and infuriate new VP players.

I've had my own nitpicks on civ and building balance dismissed as modmod territory enough times that I've become a bit of an authority on this argument. This is modmod territory.

Good point.

 

[Stalker0]

If it's easy then make a modmod.

I agree here. Its probably worth modmod territory for any balance elements to cater to "non-standard settings".

 

[grmagne]

Just to show that Raging Barbarians aren't the huge advantage for Authority that everyone seems to think, I did this experiment:

- Emperor difficulty, Standard speed, Tectonics Large Map with 12 civs/24 CS, Raging Barbarians, Events enabled.
- It was a slightly weird RNG map, where I ended up in a tundra-zone without nearby CS, but it was perfectly playable with 4 iron within Washington's border.
- I didn't destroy any barb camps near my capital to maximize the number of units I got to kill.
- I chose God of War and started on the right side of Authority to get 3 yields for every barb. I was the first to found a religion.
- I researched Iron Working before Pottery to maximize my killing potential without losing Tech & Culture bonus to extra cities.
- I chose America because their UA is very helpful in getting a good start to the game. I've killed about 70 barbarians versus the loss of only 1 pathfinder & 1 archer so far (but the barb horsemen just arrived so it'll be a bit more challenging now).
- My units have been killing barbarians non-stop the entire game. I got hampered by the Barbarian bug which caused Washington to get decimated at the beginning but now I'm back on track.

After all that I'm in last place by score, policies & techs. This experiment is the worst game of Civ 5 I've probably ever played. Interestingly, the only AI to select Authority is England and they're doing the second-worst in this game.

Leaders by Score at Turn 103
Shoshone 15 Techs, 6 PROGRESS Policies
Iroquois 15 Techs, 5 TRADITION Policies
Siam 19 Techs, 5 PROGRESS Policies
China 15 Techs, 5 PROGRESS Policies
Babylon 16 Techs, 5 PROGRESS Policies
England 13 Techs, 5 AUTHORITY Policies
America 12 Techs, 4 AUTHORITY Policies

To summarize: I've left the barbarian camps around Washington intact to maximize my barbarian exposure. I've done nothing but kill barbarians all game long. And this is one of the worst results I've ever had. I get way, way better results than this attacking other civs, which is what Authority is supposed to do. I know someone will say that I should have built more settlers, but my response is that I played this way deliberately to see if I could get a better result by endless killing of barbs to "exploit" Raging Barbarians with Authority's bonuses. But no, that does not work.

Final Observation: The barbarians were way easier in this game than usual. I wonder if the 7-15 version has drastically reduced the spawn rate? I didn't see it in the notes, but the barbarians were much more challenging in the past.

 

[Stalker0]

I got hampered by the Barbarian bug which caused Washington to get decimated at the beginning but now I'm back on track.

How much did the barb hits cost you? If you are the only one that got hit, its possible that was a part of your setup that we can't discount.

 

[grmagne]

How much did the barb hits cost you? If you are the only one that got hit, its possible that was a part of your setup that we can't discount.

One hit cost over 100 food, and another drained my entire treasury and the archer & pathfinder I had near the capital were both killed - I don't remember the rest. But all that happened around turn 25. The rest of the game I didn't take a hit on the capital and never suffered another casualty. I assume the AI is getting hit with the same problems too.

 

[grmagne]

I'm not a fan of slippery slope arguments, but I think that G has been fairly clear that non-standard game configurations, and iterating game rules for them is something that is not worth the effort.

Furthermore, the people who play with Raging Barbarians may be doing so specifically because it slants towards certain playstyles. I think a change to policies/balance like this is just as likely to piss some players off as it is to please others.

The problem with this issue is that there's a tug-of-war between players who want "Chill" barbarians and people like myself who want "Raging". I really liked it in 2017 when barbarians were made way tougher and the insanely high bonuses were stripped away from the AI (which gave them an unfair advantage). But the "Chill" players hated it and lobbied for fewer barbarians but now I feel like there's not enough barbarians. I would prefer it if both camps could be made happy simultaneously without the global back & forth. But if there's already a good modmod for tougher barbarians I'll use that instead -- I just haven't found the perfect one yet.

And I play Raging Barbarians because I want the game to be more difficult, not because I'm trying to make it easier on myself. If I wanted easier, I would just drop down the difficulty level. Barbarians make the Ancient era way more interesting, especially when there's a crowd of them in the area I want to expand into, because I have to decide whether to charge at them with warriors & pathfinders or delay building settlers so that I can research Bronze Working or Military Theory first. That kind of dilemma is more challenging & interesting than just building 7 settlers, expanding in every direction with barely any military -- which was possible in the Vanilla version.

 

[CppMaster]

Just to show that Raging Barbarians aren't the huge advantage for Authority that everyone seems to think, I did this experiment:

- Emperor difficulty, Standard speed, Tectonics Large Map with 12 civs/24 CS, Raging Barbarians, Events enabled.
- It was a slightly weird RNG map, where I ended up in a tundra-zone without nearby CS, but it was perfectly playable with 4 iron within Washington's border.
- I didn't destroy any barb camps near my capital to maximize the number of units I got to kill.
- I chose God of War and started on the right side of Authority to get 3 yields for every barb. I was the first to found a religion.
- I researched Iron Working before Pottery to maximize my killing potential without losing Tech & Culture bonus to extra cities.
- I chose America because their UA is very helpful in getting a good start to the game. I've killed about 70 barbarians versus the loss of only 1 pathfinder & 1 archer so far (but the barb horsemen just arrived so it'll be a bit more challenging now).
- My units have been killing barbarians non-stop the entire game. I got hampered by the Barbarian bug which caused Washington to get decimated at the beginning but now I'm back on track.

After all that I'm in last place by score, policies & techs. This experiment is the worst game of Civ 5 I've probably ever played. Interestingly, the only AI to select Authority is England and they're doing the second-worst in this game.

Leaders by Score at Turn 103
Shoshone 15 Techs, 6 PROGRESS Policies
Iroquois 15 Techs, 5 TRADITION Policies
Siam 19 Techs, 5 PROGRESS Policies
China 15 Techs, 5 PROGRESS Policies
Babylon 16 Techs, 5 PROGRESS Policies
England 13 Techs, 5 AUTHORITY Policies
America 12 Techs, 4 AUTHORITY Policies

To summarize: I've left the barbarian camps around Washington intact to maximize my barbarian exposure. I've done nothing but kill barbarians all game long. And this is one of the worst results I've ever had. I get way, way better results than this attacking other civs, which is what Authority is supposed to do. I know someone will say that I should have built more settlers, but my response is that I played this way deliberately to see if I could get a better result by endless killing of barbs to "exploit" Raging Barbarians with Authority's bonuses. But no, that does not work.

Good analysis, I'm convinced that Authority is not as OP as I thought with Raging Barbarians.
However, I'm concerned that Raging Barbarians would hurt AI much more, because a player is much more likely to be superior in terms of controlling units. Wouldn't you be more behind without Raging Barbarians? I'm usually.

 

[grmagne]

Good analysis, I'm convinced that Authority is not as OP as I thought with Raging Barbarians.
However, I'm concerned that Raging Barbarians would hurt AI much more, because a player is much more likely to be superior in terms of controlling units. Wouldn't you be more behind without Raging Barbarians? I'm usually.

There was a thread in February where people worried that Raging Barbarians on Chieftain would be too difficult for the AI and the map would get flooded by barbarians. I tested it out on Raging/Warlord and the AI had no problem clearing barbarian camps.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/report-barbs-on-lower-difficulties.628691/#post-15042823

On the higher difficulties, the AI clears out all the (raging) barbarian camps very quickly, much faster than me. I experimented a couple of months ago with bumping the barbarian camp healing rate from 10 to 20. My main concern was that the AI wouldn't know how to use multiple units against a barb camp, since one unit alone usually can't succeed, but they had no problem at all, even the Tradition ones. Basically, no matter how difficult I try to make barbarians they're always just a minor nuisance. The only exception was one beta version in 2017 that made really, really strong barbarians. I remember sending a scout around the world and seeing endless hordes of barbarians everywhere. I thought it was pretty fun, but I was maybe the only person judging from the forum

I think the biggest potential problem with Raging Barbarians is that God of War is overpowered, such as founding first in my American experiment above. But people say they can found first with God of War on normal barbarian settings, so maybe it was just designed that way. I'm not a big fan of GoW anyway. It gives you lots of faith early and then fades into irrelevance later. In my American game I would have chosen "God of Stars and Sky" if I weren't playing experimentally because I'd have permanent benefits on many, many luxury & strategic resources all around me. Outside of tundra I usually try for something like Goddess of Nature/Springtime/Renewal/Earth Mother/Wisdom/Commerce which gives even better benefits throughout the game though sometimes I fail to found with those.