Rail Road Revision Poll

[dh_epic]

I voted other, but really I'd be happy with almost anything that isn't the way it is now.

Rails consume small amounts of movement points
Rails have tangible entry/exit points
Rails cannot be built as a huge network, only a few straight lines through cities
Stack limits

Any combination of the above or what you have or any one thing... I don't really mind. But rails the way they are have absolutely ZERO strategic value.

 

[Licentia]

Restricted Access-RR 1) Units can only embark or disembark RR's at certain set points IF they want the benefit of infinite RR movement-these points would be at points where the RR connects with a city, outpost or fort. Otherwise, the RR counts only as an improved road (perhaps 1/4 or 1/5 mp).

If there is any change, then the above is what i'd prefer. It wouldn't be a huge change to the way things work now. You'd use movement points to get into town, but then click RR and automatically be moved from city to city (Only cities connected by railroad). Then maybe your turn ends, or you use the rest of your movement points once you get there. Or you could have a points system depending on how far away the town is. If the town is far away, then it would take 2-3 turns to get there. This is how Airports worked in Civ2 and possibly in Civ3 (but I haven't played much Civ3 so can't remember). It is very simple to implement it, just make it like how the Airports work. Just choose from the unit's command options while in town to take a train to another city.

 

[Bluetooth]

I voted for "no changes" because I think the railway system works perfectly as it is today.

 

[Gen]

Reduced movement penalty. Perhaps make it use up a fixed percentage of MPs rather than a fixed number (this would mean Riflemen move no slower than Cavalry on RR).

(bolding mine)

I was just going to propose the same. This is really the most sensible, yet simple model. I vote for that (assume that qualifies as Other option).

 

[Licentia]

(bolding mine)

I was just going to propose the same. This is really the most sensible, yet simple model. I vote for that (assume that qualifies as Other option).

I like the restricted access idea better because it is just as simple but is more realistic. You catch the train in town to a train station in another town (or maybe wherever you build one). Just go into town and choose from the unit's options to use the railroad and pick the city to go to. This is realistic because as other people have mentioned, units do not go faster if they "walk" on railroad tracks in REAL Life. If the city is too far away, it will tell you that it will take multiple turns for the train to arrive, and then when it arrives your turn is over. Then the Air transport would be a huge and helpful upgrade to that because with the Air transport you could transfer a unit much further and not lose your turn when you arrive. (I know Air Transport was in Civ2 but I haven't played Civ3 enough to know if it's in Civ3).

 

[Spatula]

Air travel is faster than train travel, and this is especially noticeable for larger distances, so that should somehow be reflected also.

 

[Gen]

I like the restricted access idea better because it is just as simple but is more realistic. You catch the train in town to a train station in another town (or maybe wherever you build one). Just go into town and choose from the unit's options to use the railroad and pick the city to go to. This is realistic because as other people have mentioned, units do not go faster if they "walk" on railroad tracks in REAL Life. If the city is too far away, it will tell you that it will take multiple turns for the train to arrive, and then when it arrives your turn is over. Then the Air transport would be a huge and helpful upgrade to that because with the Air transport you could transfer a unit much further and not lose your turn when you arrive. (I know Air Transport was in Civ2 but I haven't played Civ3 enough to know if it's in Civ3).

Correct me if I'm wrong but restricted access option assumes that unit does in fact go faster if walking on railroad (1/4 or 1/5 MP per tile) when not using city/fort/airfield train station to embark and select destination. Let me quote:

Restricted Access-RR 1) Units can only embark or disembark RR's at certain set points IF they want the benefit of infinite RR movement-these points would be at points where the RR connects with a city, outpost or fort. Otherwise, the RR counts only as an improved road (perhaps 1/4 or 1/5 mp).

Idea which The Last Conformist proposed looks more realic to me. Basically, every unit goes by train the same number of tiles regardless of its individual inherent speed (rifleman will go the same distance as cavalry).

 

[Licentia]

Correct me if I'm wrong but restricted access option assumes that unit does in fact go faster if walking on railroad (1/4 or 1/5 MP per tile) when not using city/fort/airfield train station to embark and select destination. Let me quote:

Well... Restricted Access with a... twist

 

[Trade-peror]

I voted for Other, in that I agree with the Last Conformist and Gen that RRs should use a fixed number of movement points, or use up a supply of "RR movement points" that is the same for every unit, so that the particular type of unit being transported is irrelevant to how far it can be shipped. This would be most reasonable because the trains are doing the work of moving, and their speed does not, in any way, depend on their cargo's own ability to move.

 

[Licentia]

Has anyone at Firaxis or Sid Meier ever expressed a desire to change the railroad system?

 

[The Last Conformist]

I think Dan Magraha (I'm sure I spelt that wrong) said they'll keep the current system because it's part of the "civ legacy".

 

[Licentia]

I think Dan Magraha (I'm sure I spelt that wrong) said they'll keep the current system because it's part of the "civ legacy".

Well.. I won't really mind if they keep it. It's not like they'll lose fans if they don't change it, but they could if they do...

 

[frekk]

Personally I think the current system is equally good as any other model. But restricted movement, I do not like at all.

 

[dh_epic]

This is one of those places where I don't care too much about realism. Although if they can find a realistic excuse that helps. Really, it's a question of rendering space and time completely meaningless by 1900. I don't like how railroads do that.

 

[eromrab]

I voted for Other, in that I agree with the Last Conformist and Gen that RRs should use a fixed number of movement points, or use up a supply of "RR movement points" that is the same for every unit, so that the particular type of unit being transported is irrelevant to how far it can be shipped. This would be most reasonable because the trains are doing the work of moving, and their speed does not, in any way, depend on their cargo's own ability to move.

i agree with all 3 of you. i think that this is not only realistic, but it would improve gameplay the most. I DO NOT want to have to click "entrain/detrain" to use a darn RailRoad... come on guys... think of all the extra clicking you'd have to do! that doesn't sound fun to me.

i want to be able to click on my dude, click "GOTO," and have it automatically use trains and roads to get there in the fastest possible manner. just click and forget it until it gets to it's destination...

this seems not only the most realistic to me, but also the best for gameplay, and strategy... no more "mass reaction forces" in the middle of an empire that can go throughout the entire place in one turn...

with this, they'd have to have smaller forces which could actually be overpowered... they'd have to spread out their military throughout their empire, and militarily defeating a mass empire would actually have some chance of taking place... or at least getting in some good attacks.

please try to think of gameplay and how annoying it is to click all the time! i think most people agree that RR's as they are now need to be changed... but let's try not to make them more annoying through a ton of clicks... let's try to stay as close to the original design, but yet make it better.

 

[Licentia]

i want to be able to click on my dude, click "GOTO," and have it automatically use trains and roads to get there in the fastest possible manner. just click and forget it until it gets to it's destination...

Hmm.. After reading that I have to say I am converted. I like that better than my idea.

 

[eromrab]

woohoo!

 

[frekk]

The only thing is limited movement for rail is not very realistic. In a month you can travel a pretty much unlimited distance by rail. And in terms of military effects, using rail for strategic redeployment does allow massive numbers of troops to be shuttled in from very remote areas in extremely rapid time. We're talking moving 30 divisions from Siberia in a time span of maybe a week to assist in Soviet offenses, which is basically instant in terms of any other kind of movement ... limited movement doesn't model this well. The only realistic limitation is capacity, and even that's debatable. Also limited movement results in "mass crawl". It's just like worker automation, you're still stuck watching all that stuff move ... round after round after round. If you ask me that's alot more tedious than a few extra clicks.

 

[rhialto]

In a month, you can drive from Spain to Beijing. or you could do if there were good roads along the entire route. Except in limited regions where bullet trains or their equivalent exist (complete with premium prices), rail travel is usually slower than the same journey done by road.

 

[Jon Shafer]

The only thing is limited movement for rail is not very realistic. In a month you can travel a pretty much unlimited distance by rail. And in terms of military effects, using rail for strategic redeployment does allow massive numbers of troops to be shuttled in from very remote areas in extremely rapid time. We're talking moving 30 divisions from Siberia in a time span of maybe a week to assist in Soviet offenses, which is basically instant in terms of any other kind of movement ... limited movement doesn't model this well. The only realistic limitation is capacity, and even that's debatable.

The same is true of sea travel, but ships can only move up to about 8 tiles. Even if you argue for an increase in ship movement, it still doesn't model it "realistically."